Zero Energy Workforce Housing

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Mike Collignon: You know, I do a fair amount of contract work for green building media, but I'm not an actual employee, so I'm not putting myself on the back when I say that the people of green green building media are pretty smart, because I'm sure that they knew that July was National Anti Boredom Month. And if you haven't noticed, their content battles boredom head on.

00:00:23:19 - 00:00:52:00
Mike Collignon: And that's why that's what we're doing with today's webinar. We're going to be talking about actual real life, zero energy ready homes that are being built for around $200,000. That's right. I said $200,000. Now who is doing this incredible work? Why? That would be our guest, Rob Howard of Howard Building Science. He is a licensed general contractor providing sustainable development and net zero energy home construction in the high country and foothills of western North Carolina somewhere.

00:00:52:00 - 00:01:15:19
Mike Collignon: But Rob has over 20 years of experience in the construction industry. He built the first net zero energy home in North Carolina in partnership with the Appalachian Energy Center in 2005. He also built his first Doe Zero Energy Ready Home in North Carolina in 2015. But you might also know him from his roles with habitat for Humanity International and Mitsubishi Electric.

00:01:15:19 - 00:01:45:07
Mike Collignon: Rob has a master's degree in sustainable technology and Building science from Appalachian State University, where he now serves as a lecturer. You know, our sponsors are anything but boring. The first is Schneider Electric, who is driving the digital transformation of modern homes with smart and sustainable energy solutions for ultimate comfort and energy efficiency. Their connected home ecosystem of smart energy management solutions provides digital control of energy use throughout a home from the grid, via their smart electrical panels to their connected wiring devices.

00:01:45:08 - 00:02:07:26
Mike Collignon: This grid to plug solution makes it significantly easier to create smart solar power and backup power ready homes, both now and in the future. Next is Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions. You know, they're helping builders across the country differentiate themselves with powerful, code compliant and cost effective indoor quality air indoor air quality solutions that provide a safer environment for homebuyers.

00:02:08:02 - 00:02:35:15
Mike Collignon: And Genco Solar is a leading PV module manufacturer and energy storage system integrator. The company has deployed more than 100GW of their Eagle modules in 160 countries globally, including more than 17GW right here in the United States. Eagle storage brings together the best energy storage technology for turnkey hardware and energy storage services. Eagle is a trusted choice for U.S. solar and storage projects, and our newest sponsor is.

00:02:35:15 - 00:03:02:04
Mike Collignon: LG is a leading proponent of the electrification movement. LG is proud to pave the way with arguably the broadest portfolio of home electrification products, from air to air and air to water heat pumps for HVAC, water heaters, clothes dryers and washer dryer combos all the way to advanced energy storage systems, EV chargers, and super efficient appliances, including the industry's first Energy Star certified induction Cooktop.

00:03:02:07 - 00:03:29:02
Mike Collignon: LG's innovation and technology will help us promote decarbonization and collectively create a better life for all. Now, during the course of today's presentation, you can submit questions for Rob. Simply use the questions box inside the Go to Webinar Control panel. I'm going to review those questions and pose those to Rob after his presentation. Now here to say a few words about Rob is none other than the creator of housing 2.0, Mr. Sam Raskin.

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Sam Rashkin: Hey, thank you Mike. It's been too long since we've been working together, one of these webinars. But I really wanted to introduce our speaker today. As many of you know who attend the housing 2.0 workshops. The average median price to median income ratio nationally is 5.6. I want everyone to absorb that. 5.6 is a medium price to median household income ratio nationally.

00:03:58:27 - 00:04:25:20
Sam Rashkin: What you need to know is a ratio of five is considered a severe economic burden, and you need to be down to about 3.0. So people can live a less financially stressed life. So it's with great, great pride and man of being impressed that I am so happy. Rob is coming to today's Thought Leader session because we need housing.

00:04:25:22 - 00:04:47:20
Sam Rashkin: Two point out builders are able to demonstrate that it's not just for high end homes. In fact, we can build workforce housing that provides a tremendous user experience at a price people can afford. It's not a myth, it's reality. And Rob Howard is one of the unique and very rare builders in the country who's able to do this.

00:04:47:22 - 00:05:07:11
Sam Rashkin: His work is so important, and he's buried way in the mountains of North Carolina. So we dug him out. We're going to bring them here today. I hope you all pay attention. This is really epic kind of achievements that we need in the industry. So, Rob, I couldn't be more happy. You're here today and so grateful you're going to share with us your wisdom.

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Sam Rashkin: Thank you so much.

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Rob Howard: Thank you. Sam. I really appreciate this opportunity. So we're ready to dive in here.

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Sam Rashkin: They're good.

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Sam Rashkin: To go.

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Rob Howard: Okay, well. Welcome everybody. I hate that we can't be together in person. That is definitely my preference when I'm giving a presentation. But we'll make the best of it here and utilize technology for all it's worth. So I just want to reiterate what Mike was saying about, you know, please put your questions or comments in the chat, and we'll definitely try to get to those before the end of our time today.

00:05:48:18 - 00:06:13:20
Rob Howard: See if I can get this thing to advance. So again, my name is Rob Howard. I'm a builder developer based in Granite Falls, North Carolina, in the western part of the state. My company is called Howard Building Science, and as Sam mentioned, I'm also a billing science lecturer at Appalachian State University. I don't want to correct Mike, but there's one thing we got to clear up.

00:06:13:21 - 00:06:17:22
Rob Howard: It's not Appalachian. It's Appalachian.

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Mike Collignon: My apologies. Rob.

00:06:19:04 - 00:06:46:10
Rob Howard: That's quite all right. It happens all the time. And as you mentioned, I've you may remember me from previous positions with Mitsubishi Electric on the performance construction team and or, you know, I spent 15 years with habitat for humanity, ten years as a director of construction for my local affiliate in Hickory, North Carolina. It's called Catawba Valley for humanity.

00:06:46:13 - 00:07:13:10
Rob Howard: And then five years as a sustainable building specialist with habitat for Humanity International. That picture there is of the first zero energy home that was built in North Carolina by Habitat for Humanity of Catawba Valley in Hickory, back in 2005. I'll give you a little bit more detail on that project in a few slides, but that was also obviously almost 20 years ago.

00:07:13:10 - 00:07:19:02
Rob Howard: So I had a my hair was much darker at that time.

00:07:19:04 - 00:07:49:01
Rob Howard: Just want to tell you a little bit more about my work with Appalachian State. I'm part of the Department of Sustainable Technology and the Built Environment, started teaching as an adjunct for App State back in 2010 after teaching remotely at their what was then the Hickory campus. They talked me into driving up to Boone to teach on the main campus, and once I got used to the drive, I decided I was going to apply for grad school and see if I could get in.

00:07:49:02 - 00:08:17:25
Rob Howard: So somehow I managed to to be admitted and started that program in 2015. But I like to say I did a four year paid internship at Mitsubishi right in the middle of my grad program, so it took me a few years to finish it, six to be exact. So finally finished that program in 21 and they offered me a full time lecturer position.

00:08:17:28 - 00:08:38:09
Rob Howard: I guess the other thing I want to point about, about my experience at state, is that they've been a part of the Doe race to zero and what became the Solar Decathlon design challenge for many years. And I certainly benefited from that as both a student and as a faculty member. In fact, we, you know, participated just this past year.

00:08:38:09 - 00:08:56:05
Rob Howard: So kudos to Sam and Doe for continuing to challenge our future leaders in this industry to think about how to design for a solar future.

00:08:56:07 - 00:09:21:25
Rob Howard: And have given similar workshops to this one over the years for the Appalachian Energy Center up in Boone. So we have traditionally called this the affordable Zero Energy Ready Homes Workshop. And typically we'll do a half day in the classroom, and then we'll get folks out on onto a construction site and actually walk through one of these homes, either under construction or one that's been recently completed.

00:09:21:25 - 00:09:35:04
Rob Howard: So unfortunately, we will not have that opportunity today. But if you're ever in western North Carolina and you want to see one of these in person, I'd be more than happy to to give you a tour.

00:09:35:06 - 00:09:59:07
Rob Howard: Again, just to kind of reiterate the my experience with habitat for humanity in in Hickory with the Catawba Valley affiliate. A couple of our, I guess, claims to fame as I think about it. We we built the first where we were building Energy Star homes through Advanced Energy System Vision program since 2001. So we've been at this a long time.

00:09:59:13 - 00:10:19:23
Rob Howard: I still say we because I now serve on their board of directors. But I guess, you know, maybe the thing that really changed my career is that I had an opportunity to to build the first net zero energy home in North Carolina in 2005. And that was a partnership with the Appalachian Energy Center and the State Energy Office in Raleigh.

00:10:19:25 - 00:10:43:11
Rob Howard: So it was a it was a grant funded project. But, you know, I'll give you a little bit more detail on, you know, what brought that to a net zero energy home in a minute. And then ten years later, we built the first Dozier Energy Ready Homes in North Carolina in 2015.

00:10:43:14 - 00:11:06:08
Rob Howard: So this is that dear energy home that I keep mentioning in Hickory. It was, again a partnership with the Appalachian Energy Center and really started at its heart as a as a passive solar design. So you can see that bank of windows there that faces due south, and it might look like it's on a crawl space, but it's actually on a raised stem wall slab.

00:11:06:11 - 00:11:29:18
Rob Howard: So we insulated that slab with our ten rigid insulation. This was the first house I ever built with two by six exterior walls. We'd always built with two by four prior to that. So we did. We were able to do our 25 exterior walls with advanced framing techniques. And back in those days, I think our 30 was probably, you know, code for attic insulation.

00:11:29:18 - 00:11:48:18
Rob Howard: And we took this one up to our 49. So that seemed like a lot at the time. Not so much anymore. This is actually the only time I've ever built a house that had a geothermal heat pump. And that was one of the pieces of equipment that we were able to get donated for this project by water furnace.

00:11:48:20 - 00:12:21:12
Rob Howard: And as you can see on the roof there, it's got both solar PV as well as a solar thermal water heating system. So you don't often see the storage tank on the roof. But again, it was donated. So we we were more than happy to install it. And all those systems are still working today, including the 4.8 kW PV array on the roof, which did in fact perform as a net zero energy home.

00:12:21:14 - 00:12:42:29
Rob Howard: At least, you know, for the years that we were monitoring the energy bills. So really proud of that, that home and certainly changed the way I thought about construction. And while, you know, we did not continue to build net zero on every house, we certainly took a lot of these techniques forward to the other houses that we built.

00:12:43:02 - 00:13:10:12
Rob Howard: So I want to just quickly tell you a story about one of the developments that we did in Hickory, which is called North Stone. It is a mixed income community. It's roughly 20 houses, and about half of those are habitat homes, and half of those are market rate homes. So in essence, habitat was the developer on the entire project and sold the market rate homes to raise money to help build the habitat homes.

00:13:10:14 - 00:13:33:28
Rob Howard: We worked with an architect based in Raleigh called Tight Lines Designs. As you see here, they're a socially responsible architecture firm whose mission is to provide eco friendly, quality, affordable housing design solutions. These are just some examples of homes that they've designed. These are not actually the homes that we were building, but we did actually end up building some of these same plans and tight lines.

00:13:33:28 - 00:14:11:05
Rob Howard: Does both single family as well as multifamily like y tech affordable housing projects. So, you know, we were essentially trying to put our spin on the Zero Energy Ready Home program. And, you know, so we took the features and benefits that, you know, Sam and Doe probably came up with and added to that. So you can see these homes are certainly more comfortable with healthy indoor air quality, low utility bills, both electricity and water with reduced environmental impact, safety and durability.

00:14:11:08 - 00:14:49:12
Rob Howard: We really wanted to stress universal design for aging in place, and then habitat has always had a fairly robust homeowner education program, but we wanted to add to that to help our homeowners understand the benefits of the Zero Energy Home program and how to keep their home efficient and healthy over time. And one of the ways that we did that was through monitoring and, you know, maintaining their homes through service agreements with the contractor, which we basically included in the cost of the house.

00:14:49:15 - 00:15:19:15
Rob Howard: And, you know, as you guys are probably aware, if you're participating in Zero Energy Ready Home, then you're also certifying to Energy Star and EPA Indoor Air. Plus those are basically prerequisites for zero energy. Ready. So these are the certificates that we were awarded when we certified our our homes in that North Stone community. I don't know if you can make it out, but this home actually achieved a hers rating of 44, which, you know, today might seem sort of ho hum.

00:15:19:15 - 00:15:45:08
Rob Howard: But back in, in those days we were used to getting hers ratings in the mid 60s. So to be able to get one into the mid 40s for us was a major accomplishment. And I think I mentioned that we were also participating in the System Vision program with advanced energy. And I guess one of the most unique factors of that program is they offer this two year comfort and energy use guarantee.

00:15:45:13 - 00:16:17:07
Rob Howard: So they have a formula that calculates just the heating and cooling portion of the bill. And this home, you know, was guaranteed to have basically a $30 a month utility bill, or at least the heating and cooling portion of that utility bill was around 30 bucks. So, you know, if you figure that's, you know, somewhere between 30 to 50% of your energy build and your total should be somewhere in the 60 to $90 range, which I don't I don't know about any of you guys, but mine is slightly more than that.

00:16:17:10 - 00:16:51:26
Rob Howard: So pretty darn good. And, you know, I guess one of my favorite things about what has done with the Sierra Engine Radium program is the the Housing Innovation Awards. And the Hickory or Catawba Valley affiliate has been fortunate enough to win a few of these over the years. This is the first Housing Innovation Award that we won back in 2016 was for this Julia plan from tight Lines, which is this one is a four bedroom, two bath, 1300 and 40ft².

00:16:51:27 - 00:17:26:13
Rob Howard: This is the one that came in at a hers 44. And you can see the projected monthly energy bill, annual savings and how that would impact, you know, a homeowners financial livelihood over a 30 year period. So pretty impressive. A year later, we won another Housing Innovation award for this. I think this is the Hawkins plan from Tight Lines, which is a three bedroom, two bath, 1230 two square feet, came in at a hers 46.

00:17:26:15 - 00:17:54:01
Rob Howard: 2018 we won another Housing Innovation award for this. This is a three bedroom version of the Julia plan. That's 1200 and 40ft². Came in at a hers 49. And then in 2019, we won another Housing Innovation award for this. I can't recall the name of this plan all the time I had, but it's a three bedroom, two bath, 1100 and 60ft², and this one came in at a hers 40.

00:17:54:01 - 00:18:04:08
Rob Howard: And until recently, this was the the lowest hurt score I'd ever received on, on a home that I was a part of.

00:18:04:10 - 00:18:48:02
Rob Howard: So switching gears a little bit here, during my time at Mitsubishi in 2018, I attended an innovative housing summit that was hosted by the Micro Life Institute in Atlanta. They originally started out as tiny House Atlanta, and they hosted a tiny House festival every year in Decatur, Georgia, and they later rebranded themselves as the Micro Life Institute. So will Johnson and his team have done an amazing job of advocating for different housing types within the Atlanta metro, and they've also done an amazing job of educating the industry, not not just in Georgia, but really nationwide, about the need for more diverse types of housing.

00:18:48:02 - 00:19:15:06
Rob Howard: And this was the first year that they had hosted this event, and they had Ross Chapin, an architect from the Pacific Northwest, to come in and give the keynote address, which was entitled Stronger Together Innovative Housing Opportunities for Everyone in our communities. And I was really moved by this. You know what Chapman's message was? And he also wrote a book called Pocket Neighborhoods.

00:19:15:06 - 00:19:44:01
Rob Howard: So he had a book signing after the event, and I was able to to get a signed copy of his book and meet him. And I ended up reading this for a project in grad school and was really inspired, you know, to build one of these pocket neighborhoods myself. So Chapin describes pocket neighborhoods as clustered groups of houses that are gathered around an open courtyard, where neighbors have a sense of stewardship in the common ground they share.

00:19:44:04 - 00:20:07:10
Rob Howard: One of the unique features in in a shape and style pocket neighborhood is that they have large front porches that serve as outdoor living rooms facing a shared green space. And then traditionally, we'll have a property owners association that manages the landscaping and maintenance to ensure the long term beauty of the neighborhood and the overall durability of the homes.

00:20:07:12 - 00:20:39:18
Rob Howard: I also want to make sure that everybody's clear on this term that that gets thrown around a lot now missing middle housing. This was actually coined by another architect named Daniel. And I think a lot of times people confuse this with middle income or middle class housing. But in fact, missing middle housing is a range of house scale buildings with multiple units that are compatible in scale and form with detached single family homes, but located in a walkable neighborhood.

00:20:39:20 - 00:21:17:16
Rob Howard: So this is kind of the classic picture from Parallax Company Optics that tries to communicate what they mean by missing middle housing. So, you know, over on the left, you've got detached single family homes. And then all the way to the right you've got larger apartment buildings. But you know what? We've really lost by largely due to zoning restrictions in a lot of municipalities, are these other housing types like duplexes for plexus, Cottage court neighborhoods or, you know, another way of describing pocket neighborhoods, townhomes, you know, and the like.

00:21:17:16 - 00:21:27:20
Rob Howard: So that's essentially what Parallax Company is trying to advocate for is a greater diversity of housing choice.

00:21:27:22 - 00:22:04:09
Rob Howard: So missing middle housing types, as I just said, you know, these are just examples of other types of housing that certainly help keep control the cost of housing in communities. These house scale buildings fit seamlessly into existing residential neighborhoods, support walkability, locally serving retail as well as public transportation options. And they provide solutions along a spectrum of affordability to address the mismatch between the available US housing stock and shifting demographics, combined with the growing demand for walkability.

00:22:04:11 - 00:22:35:09
Rob Howard: In 2019, I attended another Micro Life Institute event, which was a workshop for developers who wanted to actually do their own pocket neighborhood, and they actually created this workbook based on Chapin's Pocket Neighborhoods book and including things like design patterns and scaling, zoning, permitting the whole development process, and even got into ways to help finance these projects.

00:22:35:12 - 00:23:03:19
Rob Howard: So in 2021, I decided I was going to build one of these pocket neighborhoods in my hometown of Granite Falls, North Carolina, and ended up calling it Duke Street Cottages. And you know, our our goal with this community is to try to prove that sustainable is attainable. We want these homes to be affordable, to buy and to own with near zero maintenance and utility bills.

00:23:03:22 - 00:23:29:18
Rob Howard: We want to provide sustainable community living with shared green space and sidewalks that connect to downtown. And we also want to provide healthy indoor air quality with high efficiency filtration and ventilation. And I guess the tagline here is, you know, we're building towards a sustainable future where everyone has a safe, healthy place to call home. So here's the architect's rendering of the site plan.

00:23:29:18 - 00:23:55:12
Rob Howard: It has 11 single family detached cottage homes that surround a shared green space in the center. We have also carved out some space on the site, plan for a community garden as well as some outdoor storage because these homes do not have garages. So I feel like the two things that we're really struggling with as a community are bikes and boats.

00:23:55:14 - 00:24:20:17
Rob Howard: We we need places to store that kind of stuff. And, you know, just to point out some of the limitations, I feel like that exists for, you know, trying to get projects like this approved. Certainly zoning restrictions. There's no zoning in Granite Falls, North Carolina, for pocket neighborhoods, you know, or cottage courts or sometimes called a bungalow court.

00:24:20:22 - 00:24:48:02
Rob Howard: But I was able to submit this as a plan unit development, or which often described as a pub, and get it approved as a conditional use in the existing zoning. So rather than having to go to a public hearing with town council, it actually went to the Board of Adjustment and which is, you know, for those of you in the planning world or who are dealing with the planning world, they call it a quasi judicial process.

00:24:48:02 - 00:25:16:04
Rob Howard: So the Board of Adjustment is basically just, you know, almost acting like a court or a jury who's listening to the facts that are presented in the case. And then, you know, they make a determination as to whether or not this project, you know, meets the requirements. So to be able to build 11 houses on 1.25 acres near downtown Granite Falls is basically unheard of.

00:25:16:04 - 00:25:53:28
Rob Howard: So, and we are roughly 70, 80% complete. Eight of the 11 homes are already closed and occupied, and we have the last three under construction now. So hoping to finish construction on this development by probably fall and definitely be completed by the end of the year. Another limitation that we faced here was we're in the critical watershed for the Catawba River basin, so we can only develop 36% of the overall property as impervious area.

00:25:53:28 - 00:26:24:29
Rob Howard: So of course, that's rooftops and any pavement that you do, whether it's concrete or asphalt. So we will have a one way asphalt alley all the way around the outside of the development. And of course, you know, all 11 houses with that impervious roof space. But the rest of the parking area will be gravel. And then, you know, obviously, we're trying to have as much green space on the site as we can.

00:26:25:01 - 00:26:56:19
Rob Howard: One of our goals is to prove that while these homes don't have solar panels when they're originally built, we had our hers. Rader Southern Energy Management, which is based in Raleigh, essentially do an analysis of our available roof space to determine how many solar panels could we get on this site that were with the amount of south facing roof space we had available, and they came up with somewhere around 212 solar panels for roughly 70 kW of renewable energy.

00:26:56:19 - 00:27:10:01
Rob Howard: So we definitely feel confident that we could get this to a net zero energy community in the event that we're able to to figure out how to afford to put this many solar panels on site.

00:27:10:03 - 00:27:26:21
Rob Howard: In addition to PV, we're also interested in the possibility of adding battery storage at some point. And then all of the homes are pre wired for the installation of an electric vehicle charging station.

00:27:26:23 - 00:27:52:18
Rob Howard: So Duke Street Cottages is definitely an all electric community. There's no gas service to the site, and we are using as much heat pump technology as possible. So these are heated and cooled with many splits. They have heat pump water heaters. They have heat pump dryers as well as induction ranges.

00:27:52:20 - 00:28:19:04
Rob Howard: And just to give you an idea of what these homes are like, there's there's really two basic plans. This Howard two bedroom is 800ft², give or take, 24ft wide by 34ft deep, with a little inset porch on the back, and then a covered front porch on the front. Here's a couple of as built shots of the first house that we built.

00:28:19:06 - 00:28:35:13
Rob Howard: Everybody loves this kind of barn red color on this one. And you can see from the interior shot there, just barely make it out up there in the right corner. The the mini split on the wall.

00:28:35:15 - 00:29:00:18
Rob Howard: And then I actually kept the first Franklin three bedroom for my family. So we actually live in one of these homes. This is a 1400 square foot over on a, you know, on two floors. So the the overall footprint is roughly the same. This one's 24ft wide by 30ft deep, again with an insect back porch and covered front porch.

00:29:00:23 - 00:29:29:10
Rob Howard: All these have basically the same shed style covered porch on the front, a couple of as built shots of that one, very similar setup. And again, I don't know why, but somehow the mini split just barely peeks at you there in the top right corner. These pictures, a couple of shots of the bathrooms in these as well.

00:29:29:12 - 00:29:55:12
Rob Howard: And, you know, just kind of want to walk you through the the construction of these homes. So again, we've we've already finished eight of these and I've got the ninth. That's probably 75% complete, all built with structural insulated panels SIPs. The specific brand is eco panels. They're made in a factory in Mocksville, North Carolina, about an hour east of here.

00:29:55:12 - 00:30:23:05
Rob Howard: And eco panels, I guess, is unique in a couple of ways. You're probably familiar with traditional SIPs that have OSB sheathing on both interior and exterior skins, and then typically we'll have EPs foam in the middle. Eco panels actually uses closed cell spray foam in the core of these panels, so you end up with a higher value per inch.

00:30:23:07 - 00:30:46:23
Rob Howard: And they're extremely rigid panels. So we feel like contribute to not only a tighter building envelope, but also just a more resilient home. By the time we finish it, you can see the our wall panels are there, 4.5in thick version that is, you know, two skins of half inch OSB with 3.5in of closed cell spray foam in the core.

00:30:46:23 - 00:31:11:21
Rob Howard: So their rating, those that are 26, the first five houses we were using their 6.5in roof panels that are rated R 40. In phase two, we actually switched to their 8.25in roof panels that are rated R 52. And the reason we did that is because I learned from their designer that those can actually free span up to 16ft.

00:31:11:21 - 00:31:33:22
Rob Howard: So we basically got rid of our roof trusses and just went to a center ridge, beamed and with a couple of stud packs to support it, and then ended up with this nice vaulted ceiling in the living area. And we framed essentially like a storage loft over the bedrooms and bathroom.

00:31:33:24 - 00:31:56:06
Rob Howard: I guess the other thing to point out here is that Eco Panels offers Huber's sheathing as an upgrade on the exterior skin, so we are using the Huber zip sheathing there and the entire zip system to, you know, whether I's these these homes and of course, their water and air barrier.

00:31:56:08 - 00:32:08:29
Rob Howard: Yeah, there's the, you know, just a couple of examples of the zip system as well as the Advantech subfloor that we're using on these homes.

00:32:09:02 - 00:32:34:12
Rob Howard: Probably comes as no great surprise that we're using Mitsubishi. Many splits and most of the homes have at least one Ductless mini split. The two story houses actually have a ducted mini split in the attic that serves the bedrooms and bathrooms on that second floor. And you know, picture of some guy named rising or showing you what one of those looks like.

00:32:34:13 - 00:32:43:14
Rob Howard: That's that's not one of my houses. But if you haven't seen a ducted mini split, that's what it looks like.

00:32:43:16 - 00:33:15:01
Rob Howard: And we partnered with Brown on the ventilation systems for these houses were actually using their overture indoor air quality system, which includes these monitor basically room monitors that are measuring pollutants throughout the home. And they can actually boost the ventilation system, which in our case is an early to try to improve the indoor air quality. And then once the sensor is clear, it'll return it to its normal speed.

00:33:15:03 - 00:33:45:10
Rob Howard: So the sensors are monitoring total VOCs, temperature, relative humidity, CO2 and ppm 2.5. So, you know, and I think, you know, for a very reasonable cost, we're getting, you know, a version of smart ventilation in these homes, which I'm really excited about. And then, you know, we're also using their kitchen range hoods and bathroom exhaust fans.

00:33:45:12 - 00:33:53:14
Rob Howard: And, you know, again, a couple of examples of certifications that we've received on these homes.

00:33:53:16 - 00:34:17:01
Rob Howard: I guess another thing I'm really proud of is that last year, the two story Franklin Plan received a housing innovation special honor. And you can see he came in at a hers 38, which is to date the lowest her score have gotten on one of these houses. And of course, all these are without PV.

00:34:17:04 - 00:34:41:04
Rob Howard: And then literally just found out a few days ago that the Howard two bedroom was awarded a Housing Innovation Award for 2024. So my only regret here is that when I get to the IBA Summit in October, Sam won't be handing me the award. It'll probably be some tall, lanky guy with a guitar if I if I had to guess.

00:34:41:04 - 00:34:46:01
Rob Howard: But we'll make two.

00:34:46:03 - 00:35:06:27
Rob Howard: So, you know, here's another, you know, sort of hokey attempt at marketing for me. But, you know, I do believe that everyone deserves to live in the shade. So we, you know, came up with this acronym of sustainable, healthy, affordable, durable and Efficient Homes.

00:35:07:00 - 00:35:45:18
Rob Howard: I guess, you know, just in the way of updates, I was recently selected to be in modules. Mission Driven Developer Program module is a modular architect consulting firm, I guess, based in Pittsburgh, and they just recently opened their own factory in Pittsburgh that they call the Last Mile Lab. But they got some funding from, I believe it was Wells Fargo to do this mission driven developer program to try to help developers who are doing workforce or affordable housing to incorporate offsite construction technology into their process.

00:35:45:18 - 00:36:19:07
Rob Howard: So we continue to strive to find ways to to do more and more construction offsite, both to expedite construction control costs. And, you know, I like the fact that we're doing more and more in a controlled environment and limiting the exposure of our building materials to the elements. And you can see module has kind of a similar tagline that everyone deserves to live in, a well-designed space that they're proud to call home.

00:36:19:10 - 00:36:44:28
Rob Howard: And this is actually my last one. So just to give you a snapshot of of what's coming next for us when we finish the Duke Street Cottages project, we're going to be moving over to Hickory to do this, another infill community or pocket neighborhood that we're calling Hickory Grove. This one is just under an acre that's zoned for 20 and ten acre.

00:36:44:28 - 00:37:07:03
Rob Howard: And we're probably looking at townhomes on on this property, but we're definitely going to be building those to zero energy ready. And our goal is actually to get all the way to net zero energy on these if we're able to, to figure out the finances on that.

00:37:07:06 - 00:37:17:09
Rob Howard: Well, I think I'm going to take a breath. Mike, do we have any questions or comments we need to address?

00:37:17:12 - 00:37:32:20
Mike Collignon: We have both actually, so I'm glad you asked. And also for those who are joining us, in case you didn't see my message that went into the chat box. If you have any questions for, please go ahead and send those in.

00:37:32:22 - 00:38:05:21
Mike Collignon: I want to start actually with. Because here's the thing that's interesting. For those who don't know, Rob is well respected expert in the industry and was even invited to give congressional testimony earlier this year. But not everybody is as smart as Rob. Not everybody is as informed or is as at that expert level as Rob. So, Rob, if you could give us a little bit of context on a couple of things.

00:38:05:23 - 00:38:16:17
Mike Collignon: So first and foremost for our audience, can you kind of explain the difference between net zero and zero energy. Ready.

00:38:16:19 - 00:38:55:03
Rob Howard: Yeah. I mean, you know, just this is kind of a high level I guess. But I mean, Zero Energy Ready is essentially a home that is, I like to say roughed in for a future solar installation. So we're trying to build the lowest load home we possibly can. And when I say load, I mean both the HVAC load and the electrical load so that, you know, we can put we can easily fit enough solar panels on the roof of that house to achieve net zero energy, which, you know, if we're able to do that, then we would say a net zero energy home is one that can produce as much energy as it consumes over

00:38:55:03 - 00:38:59:11
Rob Howard: the course of a year.

00:38:59:13 - 00:39:18:09
Mike Collignon: Okay, now here's another kind of building block question for for these kind of presentations and discussions. Can you can I give us just a general understanding of what the Hers skill is, but also how PV is incorporated into that?

00:39:18:12 - 00:39:45:29
Rob Howard: Yeah. So you know, the her scale has been around for gosh, I don't know, 20, 30 years anyway. But I mean when it was originally developed, I think, you know, the 100 on that scale was somewhere around 2006 international Energy conservation code, let's say. And of course, you know, today, depending on what state you're in, you're probably anywhere from, you know, 2009 to 2021 energy code.

00:39:45:29 - 00:40:17:18
Rob Howard: So a home that's built to code today is, you know, arguably probably somewhere in the 70s or 80s, you know, on the her scale, it's no longer a hundred, but the zero on that scale is intended to be a net zero energy home. So the lower the score, the better. And, you know, again, if you're if you're just thinking about getting a her score that that allows you to meet the current energy code, then you're probably going to be, you know, let's say somewhere in the 70 range.

00:40:17:19 - 00:40:45:27
Rob Howard: And, you know, as you saw in the slides where we're currently getting our homes into the, you know, low 40s on a pretty regular clip, you know, by really just focusing on a really robust building envelope and obviously the mechanical systems. But I think one of my favorite requirements of the Zero Energy Home program is that we have to keep all the mechanicals inside.

00:40:45:29 - 00:41:08:05
Rob Howard: You know, we say conditions based, but within the thermal and air boundary of the house. So, you know, in some cases, I'll put it in a closed crawl space that has the insulation on the foundation wall. You know, if we're doing a sealed attic, which in our case we have a SIP roof. So obviously the entire attic space is inside the building envelope.

00:41:08:05 - 00:41:21:19
Rob Howard: So that is a great spot, you know, for mechanical systems. And if you're using decals, mini splits then obviously those are inside, you know, the in in condition space. So.

00:41:21:21 - 00:41:22:17
Rob Howard: I feel like.

00:41:22:20 - 00:42:08:15
Sam Rashkin: Can I, can I just ask a question about that? That's really important. But first I want to insert a caveat about the Hurst scores. When you get a report from the Hurst scores, you're going to see something much like what you showed on the, Housing Innovation Award summaries in terms of savings and so forth. And I want to make sure everyone knows they have to substantially discount that average monthly, you know, the annual savings number, because the annual savings is calculated to the reference home, which is a 2006 home which has nothing to do basically with the latest codes that average around 2012 and 2015.

00:42:08:20 - 00:42:35:14
Sam Rashkin: So you can cut those in half, almost those savings, and make sure when you get a hers report, you recognize the savings numbers, not compared to another new home built to the code. But this really I don't know what to call what the reference home is. It's such a quagmire of a concept. But getting back to this, attic space, do you make sure to condition that space?

00:42:35:14 - 00:42:53:27
Sam Rashkin: Because people need to know if you build that attic space, even though it may not be occupied, you have to manage a more shallow that tends to fall by stack effect, migrate up to that attic so you provide supply and return up in that space, right?

00:42:53:29 - 00:43:12:20
Rob Howard: Yeah. Correct. So I think of it as semi condition space, you know, no different than I would think of a closed crawl space. So in our crawl spaces we have a dedicated dehumidifier, you know as a drying mechanism in that space. So you know you could probably do the same thing in a conditioned attic if you chose to.

00:43:12:21 - 00:43:35:17
Rob Howard: But in our case, in this two story, we actually have that ducted mini split in that area. So we can easily introduce a little bit of conditioned air in that space, you know, to essentially temper it. You know, we're not trying to keep it 72 degrees up there year round. But you know, because I'm an energy geek, I've got these little temperature and humidity sensors up there.

00:43:35:18 - 00:43:55:18
Rob Howard: I've got one of my attic and one of my crawl space. And anytime I'm, you know, giving a lecture to my students at state, they they have to see, you know, the app on my phone so they can appreciate this. But, you know, over the course of the year, the, the temperature in my attic is usually within 3 or 4 degrees of the temperature on the second floor.

00:43:55:18 - 00:44:03:09
Rob Howard: So, you know, it's it's pretty comfortable up there. That's great. And but yeah important point.

00:44:03:11 - 00:44:29:14
Sam Rashkin: And this another important point I don't want to be missed before I jump into questions. And this one is like epic. Again you need to look at these homes. And what you're seeing is a cementitious siding not cheap like vinyl siding. You seeing quality trim details. You're seeing quality details on terms of how it's constructed and normal trim is used.

00:44:29:17 - 00:45:14:24
Sam Rashkin: This is so critical to me that we have to understand that what Rob is doing is not just packaging the absolute lowest cost solutions. He's integrating a holistic approach to quality, durable housing that will stand the test of time and still meet these amazing budgets. He's using SIP panels and Rob, if you go back to the 2024 Housing Innovation Award winner, home, what I want to let people know is ransom detailed comparisons with a true cost tool from the Structural Insulated Panel Association, and this home has about $37,000 cost advantage compared to if it was built with conventional framing.

00:45:15:00 - 00:45:50:20
Sam Rashkin: And yet everyone will say I can't afford to use it panels. It is transformative. When you do a SIP optimized design you will not have picked up from the floor plans he showed in the design. Everything about this design is optimized for how panels are made, configured and assembled. So you get this tremendous cost optimized outcome and it winds up at the sit with all the additional volume for vaulted ceilings, for storage out in the attic space you wouldn't have with a conventional truss.

00:45:50:21 - 00:46:28:24
Sam Rashkin: With everything that happens in terms of less risk, more dimensional accuracy, the actual cost of this home is about $37,000. And when you look at the total price of $200,000, this is everyone should be paying attention to what Rob is doing. I hope everyone that's in the affordable housing and housing space understands the importance of the lessons learned, and also with the community planning and creating connection and creating spaces where people can live outdoors and have just so many advantages that create wellness at every level.

00:46:28:26 - 00:46:51:03
Sam Rashkin: That's why this project is so important and that's why it's being featured here. This is really amazing. I think incredibly rare success doing faster, better, cheaper. So there's a last for me. I just want to make sure we didn't lose these important aspects to this work Rob is doing.

00:46:51:05 - 00:47:09:01
Mike Collignon: So I want to get to the many questions that are coming in, because I think people really are excited and interested in what you've got going on here. Rob so real quick question from Richard. Are the Duke Street Cottages solar ready?

00:47:09:03 - 00:47:13:13
Rob Howard: They're all zero energy ready certified? Yes.

00:47:13:15 - 00:47:17:03
Mike Collignon: No. He was asking if they're solar ready though. And they are.

00:47:17:06 - 00:47:47:07
Rob Howard: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's sort of a it's actually a checklist that's included in the Zero Energy Ready Home program. So just, you know, quickly, we have to essentially say on the plans that we have sufficient roof space set aside for a future PV installation, that that roof can structurally support the additional weight of that equipment. We have to run conduit from the attic to the panel location to make it easier for somebody to, you know, to run that wire later.

00:47:47:07 - 00:47:55:25
Rob Howard: And then we also have to leave space in the panel for a future, you know, PV system breaker.

00:47:55:27 - 00:48:28:21
Mike Collignon: Okay. So wanted to make sure to get to this one. Well, I had both of you on here. Our friend Mike Barsuk says hi to both of you and Mike and Rob. He loves the mustache, but he's also very proud of of your efforts, the design decisions that were made. But he does have a question. He wants to know if you've had any issues with moisture control and he need for supplemental dehumidifier.

00:48:28:24 - 00:48:55:25
Rob Howard: Yeah. So as I mentioned, I've got temperature and relative humidity sensors in my house, you know, as well as a couple of the others that have allowed me to to install those in. Yeah, I will say it has been ridiculously hot and humid just in the last month or so here in western North Carolina. And we have seen some, you know, higher relative humidity than I would like.

00:48:55:28 - 00:49:25:02
Rob Howard: In, in the 60s, let's say. And certainly we're trying to keep those as close to 50 as possible. So yeah, I, I do have the, the fires in the crawl spaces, but I don't have supplemental medication in the house. So it is absolutely something to, you know, to pay attention to and think about, you know, is there a need for a supplemental strategy?

00:49:25:04 - 00:49:27:17
Mike Collignon: Okay.

00:49:27:20 - 00:49:37:29
Mike Collignon: So I want to get to a question from Jean. What you do you aim for to get to net zero energy. Ready.

00:49:38:01 - 00:49:56:20
Rob Howard: Yeah, it's a great question. To be honest I haven't given a lot of thought to energy use index. But it is something we talk about with our Solar Decathlon team at App State, but I've not really, you know, gotten into that as far as this project goes. So I, I don't know the answer.

00:49:56:22 - 00:49:58:27
Mike Collignon: Okay, okay.

00:49:59:03 - 00:50:25:20
Sam Rashkin: Can I just wait on that one is, you know, when there's already a national metric that's used ubiquitously for her scale, you might as well just ask, what is the hers number that generally equates to solar ready was already and roughly that's you know, you can look at the zero energy ready home average hers index score, which is roughly low 50s high 40s.

00:50:25:23 - 00:50:52:00
Sam Rashkin: So that gives you a good indication of what score, at least in the case of a hers number is zero ready number. And if you look at passive House, which is the ultimate efficient target, you might go for, that's roughly in the high 30s, 40 high 30s, which is where Rob is getting to, by the way, so much below 35, it's really egregious efforts that were required to get there.

00:50:52:06 - 00:51:10:27
Sam Rashkin: After that, you really do require the solar, but the UI is such a non industry used metric, I would just stick with the hers as your as your benchmark for for what you need to achieve.

00:51:10:29 - 00:51:33:09
Mike Collignon: And I wanted to make sure to get out there to everyone to that we've had a couple of questions come and Rob that are very focused on well okay. Can we talk a little bit more about how the costs break down. And I've encouraged them to reach out to you. Your contact information will be shared in the post webinar email that Greenfield and media sends out.

00:51:33:11 - 00:51:53:15
Mike Collignon: So I'm encouraged them to follow up privately with you. So if anybody does have some more nuanced and detailed and in the weeds type questions, there will be a way to kind of engage with Rob one on one to get through some of those. But we did have a question come in from Kim, and we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but I want to make sure to get to everyone's question.

00:51:53:15 - 00:52:04:13
Mike Collignon: Rob, I told you that it's what we do here. So Kim asks, how do you meet the small loads of bedrooms using mini split heat pumps?

00:52:04:15 - 00:52:32:12
Rob Howard: I'm going to. I'm going to have to ask for Kim's last name before I answer that question, because I'm afraid I know it. Yeah, it's a great question. So most manufacturers do not make a mini split small enough for a bedroom. So, you know, Mitsubishi makes one of the smallest in the industry at 6000 betas. And, you know, most of these bedrooms probably have loads somewhere between 1000 to 2000 BTUs.

00:52:32:12 - 00:52:59:21
Rob Howard: So, you know, can you responsibly put a mini split in in a small bedroom? I mean, yeah, it's a tough it's a tough one. I mean, probably not quite frankly. So you know, at the end of the day these these units are probably oversize. But you know, I guess we, we, we depend on the inverter compressor to be able to ramp down.

00:52:59:21 - 00:53:23:26
Rob Howard: But of course the question becomes how low can you go. And you know, we talk about how how, you know, not just the maximum capacity, but what's the minimum capacity of these systems. And, you know, then you got to get into Mike's question about sensible versus latent. And, you know, you know, we can control the temperature, but can we control the relative humidity?

00:53:23:27 - 00:53:55:28
Rob Howard: And often we're finding that we're not doing a very good job of that. So yeah, I think overall adopted you know, small ducted mini split. You know those things typically start around 9000 BTU is is probably a better choice for small houses like this. As long as you can find a way to keep those ducts inside the thermal near boundary.

00:53:56:01 - 00:54:11:11
Mike Collignon: Wanted to get to a question from Peter. What efficiencies are you experiencing with homes built by module for your project, or did you just go stick build with that? Or can you talk a little bit about that, that portion of your presentation?

00:54:11:14 - 00:54:35:20
Rob Howard: Yeah. So we have not actually built one yet. We're we're just kind of in design phase right now. But module has been doing infill construction in and around Pittsburgh for a couple of years now. And you know, they one of the reasons I wanted to align myself with module is because they set the same performance standard that I do, which is, you know, everything they build is built to the dough zero energy ready home standard.

00:54:35:20 - 00:55:02:10
Rob Howard: So, you know, and I guess the other huge benefit to working with module is that they understand how to leverage the factory relationship. And you know, it's something that me as a small builder would, you know, would have a very difficult time doing convincing a factory, you know, to build a few, you know, small houses for me to a much higher standard than, than code is, is a big ask.

00:55:02:10 - 00:55:30:14
Rob Howard: So, yeah, I guess we'll have to make that the, the topic of the webinar next year. We'll give you we'll give you a performance update on that. But yeah, I see that as one of the challenges for our industry right now is, you know, transitioning to more and more offsite construction and, you know, achieving these higher levels of performance at the same time.

00:55:30:16 - 00:55:44:12
Mike Collignon: Real quick question from Coleman, who's very excited to hear about the upcoming Hickory Grove project. Is that going to be near or part of the Hickory Grove community outside of Charlotte?

00:55:44:14 - 00:56:03:09
Rob Howard: No, but I know where that is. I used to live in Charlotte. Now this is near downtown Hickory. Right around the corner from Lenoir-Rhyne College or university, as they call it now. And not too far from the new Appalachian State University, Hickory campus.

00:56:03:11 - 00:56:25:25
Mike Collignon: Okay. All right, here's a question for both of you coming in from from Michael. I mean, many of the naysayers on CIPs are against it because of the environmental impact of the product. So can you share your opinion on on that?

00:56:25:28 - 00:56:29:05
Rob Howard: Then you want to go first on that one.

00:56:29:07 - 00:56:34:14
Sam Rashkin: So Mike, repeat the question again, naysayers on CIPs or what.

00:56:34:16 - 00:56:42:21
Mike Collignon: They're speaking naysayers and speak out against it because of the environmental impact of the product, I'm guessing they're looking more.

00:56:42:23 - 00:57:13:20
Sam Rashkin: Like you're going to open up Pandora's box with me. I think I'm going to go crazy if I watch our industry and also the the advocates for climate responsive housing and for zero carbon housing start pushing too hard. We're in a political environment where anytime you start with climate responsive or climate change housing or zero carbon housing, you're offending half the country.

00:57:13:22 - 00:57:44:10
Sam Rashkin: And why can't we just embrace the amazing outcomes or getting when we get home? Cicero energy and that carpet. That house is going to sit there for 100 years and that phone will sit solid in that wall. It's not going to budge. It's not going to have any vapor flow through it. It's going to be mazing. Performance. And by far the most egregious carbon factors in housing are driven by the concrete and the steel and some of the worst phones.

00:57:44:10 - 00:58:06:13
Sam Rashkin: But the phones are so far less than the steel and concrete lets the steel and concrete out of the homes, and you have like a 5060 plus percent solution when it comes to the environmentally responsive construction materials. Now, when we push hard and we want to force our agenda on the rest of the country, that's not with us.

00:58:06:15 - 00:58:36:07
Sam Rashkin: We are so at risk of losing the whole progress that we're making. These homes, the wellness they provide for the answer. Half the country is being left behind on wellness, financial, health, education. They are just not experiencing what the rest of the country is and it's growing the disparity. Let's just focus on making them, well, living better. All of these desired outcomes we want or reducing embodied carbon.

00:58:36:07 - 00:58:59:23
Sam Rashkin: All those things will come along. Absolutely, because we have great answers and great solutions technologically that will lead to better products and better experiences. So why don't we just embrace the amazing outcomes we get when we use advanced innovation like SIPs homes and not worry about the foam and the panels? And I'll get off my soapbox, but that's where I am on it.

00:58:59:25 - 00:59:32:29
Rob Howard: Yeah, I mean, I guess my perspective is similar, but I mean, so we're we're trying to balance, embodied carbon and operational carbon. So I will quickly admit, you know, that we're going to be high on the embodied carbon with, with these specific panels, primarily due to the causal spray foam in the core. But, you know, hopefully we make up some of that on the operational carbon, you know, throughout the life cycle of this home.

00:59:32:29 - 01:00:06:19
Rob Howard: But, I mean, you know, I'm not trying to discount wood. I prefer to get rid of spray foam in my houses. Yes. You know, if somebody is making a, a structural insulated panel with, you know, sheathing and wool insulation, then I'm, I'm interested, you know, but, I guess the other thing I'll say about the I do prefer the fact that these panels are built off site.

01:00:06:20 - 01:00:30:29
Rob Howard: So the Sprague foam is applied, you know, in a controlled environment of a factory versus being site applied. You know, so just in terms of the exposure to, you know, that process to, you know, focus on the construction site, but, you know, it is a it's obviously a legitimate concern.

01:00:31:01 - 01:00:50:17
Mike Collignon: I was also going to add in housing 2.0, and our friend Mike Vasic wanted to just share that he has a blowing agent for closed cell spray. Foam is available. He feels it's a way better option from a carbon footprint standpoint. And he just used it on a project in Chattanooga and it had no add on cost component.

01:00:50:20 - 01:01:16:12
Sam Rashkin: And that's that's to my point is the solutions will come and they'll be there. But the more we sound like we're pushing too hard right now, the more we can create resistance and objections to such amazing achievements. Like like what's happening, projects like this. So I guess I just beg everyone, just relax a little bit. We'll get there.

01:01:16:14 - 01:01:27:23
Sam Rashkin: Mike is absolutely right about these advance phones are just queued up, ready to innovate into the market space. We'll get there.

01:01:27:26 - 01:01:54:06
Mike Collignon: Another question that I'll post around. But Sam, you can chime in on this as well when we're talking about the Zero Energy Ready Home program, Dwight wanted to know, can you stand by the PV requirement through a PPA if the roof space isn't sufficient? For example, apartments with less roof space per unit?

01:01:54:08 - 01:02:25:29
Rob Howard: Yeah, to be honest, I don't. Sam would have to address whether or not you know, you could do offsite. But I mean, all you're really trying to do is get to zero ready. You know, there's no current requirement, you know, to include on site or off site production. But, I mean, you can just completely be exempted from the PV ready checklist if your site is not, you know, doesn't have sufficient, you know, roof space that would be conducive to a future solar install.

01:02:26:01 - 01:02:50:17
Sam Rashkin: Yeah. That's right. Rob the the the has been the exemption that if you don't have the roof space, you don't have to meet the requirement. And I to be honest version two is just come out and I have to check if we retained or didn't retain that exemption. So I would recommend everyone check the national program requirements for zero.

01:02:50:17 - 01:03:23:07
Sam Rashkin: Ready to see if the exemption still in force. I hope it is because, you know we shouldn't care. We should be indifferent where people get the renewable power to get it from utility grid and opt in for renewable power, from utility or offsets or or microgrids. We shouldn't be just militant. Rooftop solar is the only solution. So I hope the program has maintained the exemption and I don't know.

01:03:23:09 - 01:03:49:21
Mike Collignon: So here's the there's another question. I mentioned apartments in the last one. We're going to stick with that theme for just a moment. So David joined us. And he lives in a 15th floor studio apartment in New York City. And they're going to have to meet some electrification requirements in the coming years and other energy efficiency standards. So this question is and he admits he's not an expert at this field at all.

01:03:49:21 - 01:04:12:20
Mike Collignon: It's why he's here and asking questions. So we're glad he's with us. But this question is if you have any idea how thermal energy technology, whether it's aero or geo, can be applied to residences of that kind of makeup, you know, a 15 floor studio apartment.

01:04:12:22 - 01:04:20:25
Rob Howard: To be honest, I don't have any direct experience with that level of multifamily. Sam, you got any any ideas there?

01:04:20:28 - 01:04:46:20
Sam Rashkin: Yeah, yeah, I there's so many issues that will drive me crazy. And this will be one knows you recognize in a in a high rise apartment, 90 plus percent of the units only have one of six surfaces exposed to the outdoor conditions or or idiomatic surfaces. Is a unit above a unit, below a unit either side in a hallway.

01:04:46:21 - 01:05:21:16
Sam Rashkin: And so we got only one wall in an apartment out of six sides, exposed to any kind of weather conditions. For me to push so hard on, you know, on the other requirements, you know, your space condition loads are not that important and the electrification can be met by all other can be met, just normal technologies they use in high rise construction because high rise is a built for electric.

01:05:21:19 - 01:05:38:12
Sam Rashkin: So unless you know well they can have a central heating water heating and so forth. But so again for me it's one of these issues where I'm just how much do you go after I say focus on the big prize?

01:05:38:15 - 01:05:44:13
Mike Collignon: In that setting? Sam and Rob.

01:05:44:16 - 01:06:04:03
Mike Collignon: Where does that line come in where you say, okay, maybe I own this apartment, but I don't own the building. And how can you make changes to, I'll say, the envelope? I mean, I don't know how much latitude you even have in that setting.

01:06:04:05 - 01:06:21:29
Sam Rashkin: I recommend we don't get too deep into this one. Yeah. This is just one of these outliers. You know, it's a good question for the person who's living it, but it's it's kind of a rare topic I think for rank and file.

01:06:22:01 - 01:06:38:06
Mike Collignon: Yeah. It is a little unusual for sure. But I you know, here's what I will say. I think we can agree on this. He's not the only one that's going to have this issue in this building, right. He's he's going to be part of a group that's going to be trying to figure out answers as well. So at least you're not alone on that, David.

01:06:38:12 - 01:07:02:11
Mike Collignon: But thank you for attending and asking your question. Peter had a question for you. What range of home size, Rob, do you think is the perfect size for for the cost, whether it be a square foot range or a number of bed number of bathrooms? And then and then there is a follow up question.

01:07:02:13 - 01:07:30:09
Rob Howard: So yeah, I mean, tough one to answer. As you know from the slides, my my range is 800 to 1400 square feet. In this particular development, most of the habitat houses I built, you know, over that 15 year career were 1200 in change, you know, typically three twos. And, you know, I think I wanted to test the market with a two bedroom product and, you know, see what the response would be.

01:07:30:10 - 01:07:52:25
Rob Howard: And, you know, just as you look at the demographics, I mean, one and two person households are the fastest growing in our country. And, you know, that's that's really my target market. Its first time homebuyers on one end of the spectrum. And, you know, retirees who want to downsize on the other end of the spectrum. So and that's exactly who's buying these homes.

01:07:52:26 - 01:08:38:10
Rob Howard: You know, we still have a teenager at home, you know, so there's three of us in our in our house. But I mean, most of these are one and two person households. Some of them only have, you know, one car. So, yeah, I, I don't know what the what the right range is, but I think where we're headed is, you know, we need more smaller housing opportunities, you know, and not just apartments, but, you know, again, more, more diversity of housing types that are, you know, more, more affordable because they are smaller.

01:08:38:13 - 01:08:38:18
Sam Rashkin: Hey.

01:08:38:18 - 01:08:42:02
Sam Rashkin: Can I ask a question? Rob?

01:08:42:04 - 01:09:11:23
Sam Rashkin: It's really important. And most households have storage for things like yard tools, for bikes, for house tools for luggage. I can go on and on that might not normally fit in in homes. I know you have the attic storage capability, but even things like bikes and and certain yard tools are. What is the solution for your residents when it comes to that kind of storage?

01:09:11:25 - 01:09:32:08
Rob Howard: Yeah, I think I mentioned it earlier, but we are we're looking at building essentially an a, a detached garage that would have multiple bays in it, you know, that would essentially serve like almost like self storage, but they would be on site so it wouldn't be attached to your house, but it would be, you know, very close to your house.

01:09:32:08 - 01:09:38:16
Rob Howard: So, yeah, as I think I did mention that we're struggling with bikes and boats, you know, where do you where do you put that stuff.

01:09:38:19 - 01:09:40:01
Sam Rashkin: So that's right.

01:09:40:04 - 01:10:00:14
Rob Howard: Yeah. I mean it's it's absolutely critical, you know, I mean, we certainly want to encourage folks to get outside. I mean, that's that's part of the deal with the Micro Life Institute in Atlanta likes to say less house, more life. You know, I mean, you hear that in the in the tiny house world all the time. So, I mean, you know, these aren't tiny, but they're small.

01:10:00:14 - 01:10:21:18
Rob Howard: And, you know, we we've got some outdoor living space, you know, with that covered front porch. But, you know, certainly we want to encourage people to have active lifestyles and, you know, having the ability to store those kinds of, you know, toys, you know, some people refer to them. It's critical. So, yeah, you got to think through it.

01:10:21:20 - 01:10:43:21
Mike Collignon: It's a great question, Sam, because that was the follow up I had from Peter was asking about shortage of storage and garage and parking and that sort of thing. So it was on his mind as well. I do want to put the call out there. Final call for for any questions. Rob. I had one for you and well actually to it was on one is on this one we were just talking about.

01:10:43:21 - 01:10:52:05
Mike Collignon: I may have missed it during the presentation. Are these slab on grade. These have crawl spaces. These have basements. Which one was it.

01:10:52:08 - 01:11:03:17
Rob Howard: Yeah. So there's a mix. The first five had close crawls but the phase two were on raised stem wall slabs.

01:11:03:19 - 01:11:06:18
Sam Rashkin: Are the switch.

01:11:06:20 - 01:11:23:26
Rob Howard: Well I mean just the slope. You know, the grade is is much flatter on on the other side of the neighborhood where we're building phase two. So and you know, the one that you're looking at there on the screen is on a, it's on a crawl space. But I mean, it is a code minimum crawl space, you know.

01:11:23:27 - 01:11:40:05
Rob Howard: So you are literally crawling in there, not crouching. So I was just in there changing a filter on a dehumidifier a few days ago. So I can tell you it gets harder and harder with age.

01:11:40:08 - 01:11:43:26
Mike Collignon: To consider for the empty nester models, right?

01:11:43:29 - 01:11:46:18
Rob Howard: Absolutely.

01:11:46:20 - 01:12:04:09
Mike Collignon: The other question I had for you, Rob, was, you know, obviously different places have different codes. I was just curious on the 800 square foot model that doesn't drop you into the tiny home code, does it? It's too big for that.

01:12:04:11 - 01:12:10:04
Rob Howard: Yeah, I think that's under 400ft² to be in that appendix for tiny homes.

01:12:10:06 - 01:12:30:26
Mike Collignon: Okay, okay. All right. Just wanted to make sure on that. And we'll close the close to the compliment. Rob. Peter, who had asked the question earlier, commends you for living in your own development. And I think that's a very powerful statement, honestly.

01:12:30:29 - 01:12:49:27
Mike Collignon: You're you're building it, but you're living it. And that was certainly part of Rob's congressional testimony that he gave it a hearing. And if you're super, super bored, want to go back and watch that? That's great. But but in all honesty, I did watch it. And you know, he did talk about it. I live in one of these.

01:12:49:28 - 01:13:18:02
Mike Collignon: And so not just I'm the builder, I'm also the customer. And so I think that makes your presentation and your testimony really powerful. Rob. So thank you very much for being with us today. Sam, thanks for coming in with us to really appreciate it. We're going to go ahead and wrap this up as no other questions also, but thank you much to our audience for asking all those great questions, for being so engaged with those who really do appreciate you joining us.

01:13:18:09 - 01:13:45:26
Mike Collignon: And thank you once again to our sponsors, Schneider Electric, Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions, Genco Solar and LG vac for their sponsorships. We very much appreciate them, and I think we did reach our goal of not not reaching any kind of level of boredom here. I think people were very excited. So if you liked what you heard today, we fight boredom with housing 2.0 as well, because this kind of insight and knowledge is something that you can get in the housing 2.0 program.

01:13:45:26 - 01:14:03:16
Mike Collignon: The series two workshops, which are run by Sam, and you get to hear my voice there once in a while, start October 17th. That's the Thursday. For more information and to register if you want to hang out with Sam and I, go to Green Builder Media.

01:14:03:19 - 01:14:06:05
Mike Collignon: Two.

01:14:06:08 - 01:14:25:22
Mike Collignon: Our next Thought Leader webinar, which is just like this one, will be on Wednesday, August 14th and our usual start time 2 p.m. eastern time. We're going to be talking about minimizing embodied carbon. Hey, we mentioned that earlier here today with our good friend Gene Myers of Thrive Homebuilders. I think somebody has heard of them before. Thanks again for attending everyone.

01:14:25:23 - 01:14:26:20
Mike Collignon: And I look forward to.

01:14:26:20 - 01:14:40:28
Sam Rashkin: Seeing Michael. One more thing. We'll be with the housing 2.0 workshop in Las Vegas on August 21st. So people should check out the Green Builder Media website if they're interested in that as well.

01:14:41:01 - 01:15:06:08
Mike Collignon: That's right. If you want to catch Sam live and in person on the housing 2.0 world tour, it is going to be in Vegas. So go to that website I just mentioned before, Green Builder Media 2.0, and you can find out more about that in-person event as well. So thanks Sam. I appreciate you plugging that one. Well, again, thank you everyone for attending with us.

01:15:06:14 - 01:15:14:26
Mike Collignon: Until we see you next time when we fight more boredom with inspiring and captivating content, please stay safe, stay healthy, and take care of everyone so long.