Curt Johansen, development director at Triad Development, explains how Lagoon Valley, the Bay Area's first conservation community, permanently protects 1,300 acres of open space while still selling more than 130 homes. He argues that conservation, wetlands, and wildfire and flood buffers are value multipliers rather than costs, and that the projects require patient capital and long-term stewardship.
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Sara Gutterman: Welcome to The Valuation Metric, a podcast about the risks, rewards, roadblocks and revelations reshaping the way that we measure worth. I'm your host, Sara Gutterman, CEO of Green Builder Media, North America's leading media company focused on green building and sustainable living in California. The housing conversation almost always arrives Preesall into opposites affordability or open space, growth or conservation?
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Sara Gutterman: More homes or less wildfire risk. We've been trained to treat these as trade offs, as if protecting land is something that you subtract from value, and density is something you pay for in everything else that you love. My guest today has spent more more than 35 years proving that framing is, in the most literal sense, an accounting error.
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Sara Gutterman: Curt Johansson is the development director at Triad Development and the force behind Lagoon Valley. The Bay area's first conservation community. Its it permanently protects 1300 acres of open space. It includes an organic farm, nearly 400 acres of parks, and a championship golf course. It was recognized by the U.S. Green Building Council with a Green Building Award for a nature based community, and more than 130 homes have already sold.
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Sara Gutterman: The last number matters because it answers the objection before it's even raised. This isn't a thought leadership experiment about what a better community can look like. It's a built, occupied, market tested argument that open space wasn't the cost, it was the asset. Curt, welcome to the valuation metric.
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Curt Johansen: Thanks, Sara. Happy to be here.
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Sara Gutterman: Thanks. Let's start with the premise of your whole career, because it cuts against the industry's default math. For decades, development has been treated, has treated conservation as a deduction. Acreage. You give up returns, you forgo. But Lagoon Valley permanently protects 1300 acres and has still sold more than 130 homes to date and counting. When you're sitting across from a pro forma, how do you make the case that protected open space isn't a line item against value, but a multiplier for it?
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Curt Johansen: Good question. So, you know, my my whole practice has been driven by my belief that we are a biophilic species. So our connectivity to nature is just so inherent in who we are. And for thousands of years, of course, we were in agrarian society right where we food was, what land was for. And it also provided the connectivity to nature.
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Curt Johansen: Over the past couple of hundred years, industrial agriculture has changed all that. As our population exploded and industrial agriculture became the norm. Family farms are few and far between. Of course. But what that has done, particularly with the last 75 years of sprawl, we've isolated people from their natural environments. They, they it's a it's a chore for people to get to places where they really want to be.
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Curt Johansen: And so because that's becoming more and more aware, people are becoming more and more aware of their own biofilm need for that connectivity. I've believed for many years that there's no reason why we can't create places that actually conjoin nature with the built environment. And, you know, the approach is a little bit different than conventional development, where they try to cram every square foot they can with homes and buildings.
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Curt Johansen: Our approach is we take the most sensitive parts of the site that are biologically and and culturally sensitive, and we designate those to be protected, and then we make the residential and commercial fit around it. So that's our approach.
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Sara Gutterman: So tell us a little bit more about how you've done that at Lagoon Valley.
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Curt Johansen: Okay. Well, so we entitled the property 20 years ago. And you know, at the time it was very challenging for the city to understand what sustainable development looked like. And so there was a lot of education that went along with that. But the good news is there were enough people who were interested in it that I was able to take a specific plan of actually 2400 acres and start with that commitment to 70% of that specific plan land as forever permanently protected.
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Curt Johansen: The city agreed, and we now have the ability to just gently nestles sort of little, little residential neighborhoods and embed them in that experience. And so for a lot of people that come out here for the first time to step out their door and be able to go right onto trails and right into open spaces to definitely different than what they've experienced.
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Curt Johansen: But we are so we feel so encouraged because the response has been so positive. I mean, it's like, how did you do this? And, you know, it's a lot of hard work, patient capital to make the value proposition work. But underpinning it all is our belief that the the most, the most intense value that both home builders and homeowners derive is from permanently protected open space.
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Curt Johansen: You can build amenities. We do. We build lots of amenities for residents. But the idea that they are embedded in nature has so much value to people that that's really the highest premium they'll pay and they expect hopefully a lot of them will be lifelong residents. But, you know, the value proposition of the home is tied to that.
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Curt Johansen: And the response has been really positive. So we're really encouraged.
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Sara Gutterman: Now you entitled the properties you said 20 years ago that's a really long term vision, which is fantastic. But you didn't just have to believe all of this yourself. You had to convince four major homebuilders a regulatory apparatus that, let's say, is not nimble and a skeptical market. So three audiences that usually trust each other less than they trust you as a developer.
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Sara Gutterman: So what was the hardest sell and what was the argument that finally moved them?
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Curt Johansen: Yeah, it was a good, great question. So with the homebuilders, what are the advantages of being in the industry for a long time is that you have the ability to develop a track record. And so with homebuilders, I have been able to build their trust that we will deliver on the promise. So that's helpful. You know when I started out in the business decades ago it wasn't like that.
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Curt Johansen: I mean I couldn't I didn't have the track record. So I would be promoting the same ideas. But there was a lot of skepticism. Having been able to successfully achieve with each project, moving the needle further towards sustainable development. The builders believe that we will execute on that. So that has helped me a lot with them. The regulatory side has been more challenging.
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Curt Johansen: So whether it's local or state or even federal.
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Curt Johansen: You know, there's those public servants that do work so hard in their jobs and don't get the acknowledgment they deserve. They're trying to do the right thing. Introducing something really new takes a lot of education. It takes a lot of communication, and not just initially, but it's reinforcing it as you go. So a good example is we we wanted to create a 71 acre wetland on the property and we wanted to do it.
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Curt Johansen: We wanted to do it better than created. Wetlands typically work out because they have a checkered track record. You know, some work out better than others. We wanted to really do something kind of special. Well, we assembled a team, and what we found out is that we have a fairly high groundwater table. And if we actually create the wetlands so that we can allow the natural water to percolate, percolate up from the bottom instead of depending on irrigation and, you know, natural rainfall to try to help that, that might actually create a more natural feeling.
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Curt Johansen: Wetland for wildlife. The state of California has already told us it's the poster child for how to do a created wetland. It was a little more expensive to do it that way, but the wildlife that's out there, people are coming every day just standing there and marveling at it. It's fenced off. Of course we have to. The state has told us to take five years.
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Curt Johansen: Let's make sure it's established, and then maybe we can put a raised walkway through it. You know, people like they do in Florida with the Everglades and that sort of thing. So everybody's anxious to get deeper in there so they can see what's going on. But you know that that approach is we we pay attention to those details and it really pays off in the long run.
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Curt Johansen: And, you know, that's one of the most delightful areas for our homebuyers. They just love the idea that they live next to a a thriving wetland preserve. So, you know, there's many more of those types of examples. But they you know, I firmly believe that if you if your principles are aligned properly with protecting the environment, people get it.
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Curt Johansen: They understand that there's intrinsic value there, and it might be hard to put a dollar value on it. It definitely they feel it inside and they've expressed it to us.
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Sara Gutterman: Let's follow up on this concept of value. I just love what you just said. You know, conventional builders will look at conservation communities, you know, land set aside, infrastructure, parks, open spaces, wetlands. And they see expensive full stop. When does that math and the mindset flip? How do you flip that? How do you change that?
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Curt Johansen: Yeah that's a yeah that's a little bit of of a challenge because most developers are sort of what I call single bottom line driven. So you know, the environment and even social responsibility aren't value adds for them. They consider those to be more of a kind of an organic process that will happen by somebody else over time. They want to get in and get out, get their profits as fast as they can.
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Curt Johansen: What what we've explained to builders is that we will continue to create upside value for them as the community matures, not only through the things they're doing, but through the things we are doing. So we have a very robust approach to that. When people come to visit the the property. We sort of we sort of capture them to go through our visitor's center, which is a pretty elegant facility, actually.
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Curt Johansen: We we believe strongly in, in, you know, that introductory meeting to prospective buyers that come out. And what we do is we it's both very high tech, but it's also very it's very personable because we have greeters that are very knowledgeable about the project. So the idea is to introduce people to all of these principles, these sustainable concepts, what conservation really means, all the wildlife habitat and how that gets stewarded over, you know, in perpetuity, all the stuff that's different about the community.
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Curt Johansen: And then we release them to go and figure out if they if they have a if they really want to buy a house. Right. And so we kind of do a hand off to the builders. What we have found is that because we survey as much as we can the process, what we have found is that a very high percentage of the people who end up buying homes here made the decision to live here before they went into a model, which that that's sort of validation for me, that people are as interested in a community and a lifestyle as they are about the four walls they're going to be living in.
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Curt Johansen: And so it's made the builders job easier because a lot of their prospects come to them. They've kind of they drank the Kool-Aid, so to speak. And, you know, it's like, well, we have, you know, many of floor plans. There's various neighborhoods, all that. But, you know, because it's so different. We also believe that that introduction is important because we tell people this isn't forever.
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Curt Johansen: You know, we're very upfront about that. You know, if you're not a nature lover, you're not going to be happy here. I mean, you just because it's everywhere, you can't really you can't really isolate yourself from it. So it isn't for everybody. But again, we're not trying to be everything for everybody. We have got a very specific concept that we believe appeals to a lot of people, and there's plenty of those people out there for this community.
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Curt Johansen: So we want a good fit. We want people that feel like they belong here.
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Sara Gutterman: You know, that leads me to a question that I'm curious about. This came up just as I was listening to you. I was going to ask if you felt that the people who were inclined to live in a conservation community kind of came to you very open and kind of wanting to be convinced to live there versus other people who might not have that same set of values and priorities.
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Sara Gutterman: And they come and they don't necessarily they're not open to that same level of, you know, engagement, and they don't necessarily want to be convinced. Would you say that the people who are already predisposed to live in a conservation community and already feel connected with nature, they're the ones that come with those with that ethos? Or do you see people who might not, you know, have that prior, say, connection with nature?
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Sara Gutterman: They come and they have this moment where they're like, oh, I want to live like this. So what's the what's the percentage, would you say?
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Curt Johansen: Yeah, that's that's interesting. I would, I would say it's probably 5050, probably half of the people that have chosen to live in the Valley, I would think came excited. You know, they, they we've had we've had lots of testimonials where people just unsolicited, they just come and say, I've been waiting 30 years, 40 years to live in a place like that, right.
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Curt Johansen: So there's that group, but then equally large in number, I think, are the people who haven't been dreaming about anything like this. They're just in the market for a new home. They have certain things that they're also looking for besides the home, whether it's, you know, amenities that make, you know, are particularly appealing to them. You know, we have the parks, we have the sports courts, the event center, we have the town center with the local neighborhood retail, all that.
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Curt Johansen: I would say that that group mainly comes in curious and skeptical. I mean, there's there's a level of skepticism, right? Is like, this might be a little too good to be true. Some of them want, you know, want to come out just to Tripoli, just to reassure themselves that this isn't really what it is. But we haven't had many that come in.
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Curt Johansen: We have had some people that come in and go, I think this is a little too touchy feely for me. You know, it's like, you know, we have pretty strict corners in many ways. It's to protect the environment, right? It ties into how people relate to the natural world that they're that they're embedded in. So for some people that's a little bit, you know, that's a little bit different than what they were looking for.
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Curt Johansen: But again, we're we're we've trained our folks to reassure those folks that this isn't a right or wrong kind of thing. If it's not a if it doesn't feel like a good fit. There's nothing wrong with that. And our builders support that, because sometimes some folks will come in and they will figure out how to bypass our visitor center.
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Curt Johansen: Right? They'll just like, I don't need I don't need to talk to anybody. I'm just going right to a model home. And the builders there, of course, they're very accommodating. But at the same time, they actually say, before you leave, go stop in and hear about the community because you need to you need to feel good about what's going on here.
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Curt Johansen: That kind of thing. And so it is a mix. But again, I think we're not that big of a project. I mean, at the end of the day, we're just sort of a medium sized plan community. And so we'll end up probably with around 3000 people living here. And that's all in a city of over 100,000 people. So, you know, it's it's it's not it's not as large as a lot of planned communities grow to be.
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Curt Johansen: But again, that's driven by, you know, the commitment to not developing on property that should have been protected. And we believe that's what we're doing.
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Sara Gutterman: Now let's switch gears for a minute and talk about wildfire risk mitigation, because we're having this conversation at a moment in time when wildfire risk is repricing, entire California markets insurance is being pulled, lending is tightening. Resale assumptions are just breaking. So does conservation anchor design and community development change the underlying risk profile of a community with respect to wildfire?
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Sara Gutterman: And is the market starting to pay for that level of resilience?
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Curt Johansen: Yeah. So great question. So climate resiliency is one of our core principles that we we we pay attention to that all the time. And wildfires of course, are a way of life in California. So one of the things we we've made an essential in our planning efforts is in the city cooperated with this is to create significant buffers from wildfire areas that sometimes there's 6 or 7 times what normal buffers are.
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Curt Johansen: I mean, there's always regulation that says you got to set back and keep, you know, growth down, vegetation down. Well, for us it's it's it's a much bigger irrigated area that we like to buffer the community from. The fire department loves that. I mean, we built our our on on site fire station before the first person moved in to any home here.
00:21:03:20 - 00:21:48:14
Curt Johansen: And it's a full service 24 over seven station. Wonderful fire department here. And they love that concept because it it really gives them it's an added it's an added level of protection for them. If something happens. And we all have had wildfires affect our lives so it's not going away. So that's important to us on that, that buffering from from the wildlands which are susceptible to that climate resiliency for us, though, is also the sort of the companion piece of that which is flooding.
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Curt Johansen: So flood protection is really important to us. We're in a valley where historically, at the other end of the valley, we've had private property errors, had flooding occur a lot because, you know, infrastructure was never put in place to actually control that. And, you know, a lot of people who built many, many, many years ago fall victim to that.
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Curt Johansen: So what we did was we we had the advantage of all the open spaces and recreational areas. So we used those areas also to create 156 acre feet of stormwater detention bases, which for your listeners who don't deal with acre feet on a normal basis, that's the equivalent of 1.3 million bathtubs full of water. It's a lot.
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Sara Gutterman: A lot.
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Curt Johansen: Yeah, it's a lot. And so those basins, they remain dry. And when rains come and they can come pretty intensely in the winter particularly, it's it's a filtration system to clean the water, but it also allows the water to fill up and then be let out very, very slowly so that by the time it gets to the other end of the valley, it's a manageable runoff.
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Curt Johansen: And so those two pieces kind of go together for us. And we've one of the value propositions. And I love the kinds of questions you asked Sara. How is that valuable. Well, the value to the homeowners is that they feel much more secure that they have protection against wildfire than in many other communities, but that that were also very sensitive to using all of the property we have for other climate resiliency issues.
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Curt Johansen: And I haven't heard whether or not they're getting lower premiums on their fire insurance. But I can tell you this, we have had no issues with anybody getting fire insurance here is but no problem at all. And I suspect that some of that is is due to the way the community has been created. And I know some other, other areas are definitely struggling with getting any fire insurance.
00:24:18:15 - 00:24:53:09
Curt Johansen: Forget the cost right there. Just so I think. I think it is being noticed. I think people do pay attention to that. And again, the key to that is, is to the art of it, if you will. It's a balance of art and science. The art of it is how do you use the land sensitively to address these resiliency issues, at the same time leaving some room for the built environment and then also keeping in priority the natural environment?
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Curt Johansen: I mean, it's a bit of a balancing act, but when you've done a few of these, you kind of learn stuff as you go. And so I would love to think that I knew what I know now 40 years ago, but I didn't. So it's, you know, you have to be around and have have tried things, this stuff I've tried over the years that didn't work.
00:25:15:02 - 00:25:26:02
Curt Johansen: You know, you learn from what you what didn't work a lot. So that's been helpful to me.
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Sara Gutterman: That actually leads me to my next question, which is what didn't work. And I know a lot of builders and developers are looking to people. People like you, developers like you, communities like Lagoon Valley as a model for kind of the next era of what housing and communities can look like. So what are some tips that you would give to your peers that are maybe starting out now on conservation communities so that, you know they don't have to live the past 20 years of, you know, kind of groping around blindly in the dark.
00:26:03:23 - 00:26:31:21
Curt Johansen: Right? Well, that's yeah, I'll share what I heard, I think is valuable. You know, one of the biggest challenges with this is, is a failure to estimate the front end costs of these types of projects. They are high. So, you know, single bottom line development would say, as you mentioned in your introduction, you know, it's a it's a liability, right.
00:26:31:22 - 00:26:52:13
Curt Johansen: So push it on to someone else and let them deal with it. Right. And so the nonprofits, you know, the hope is that the nonprofits will come in and they'll raise some money and they'll go buy a piece of land, and then they'll protect it. And and oftentimes it's not even open to the public because they don't have the funds to make it accessible to the public.
00:26:52:13 - 00:27:35:23
Curt Johansen: And then, you know, just just the stewardship of those parcels makes it very challenging, because it's so divorced from where people can benefit from it. So in our case, we have so many systems set up so that the residents are completely involved in that whole process. And so there is more front end work involved in that. And so I my advice there is don't be shy about doing a couple of things, which is what a performing together that doesn't try to overlook those, those systems that you're going to need in place.
00:27:36:00 - 00:27:59:15
Curt Johansen: Right. Who's going to be who's going to be your conservation manager? Right. You're going to need one. You're going to need and you're going to need some funds for that. You know, who's who's going to actually, you know, maintain those those storm drainage basins. Right. Who's going to do that? Is the city got to do that? Well they don't really want to they want someone else to do it.
00:27:59:15 - 00:28:27:21
Curt Johansen: But I think the point is that the pro forma that you set up for a community like this needs to be set up in a way that you're attracting patient capital, whether it's debt or equity or both, that understand it's a long term proposition. And that means that, you know, just like anything else, it's not for everybody. There will be people who go, no, we don't do that.
00:28:27:22 - 00:29:01:21
Curt Johansen: That's okay. There are people who do. There are, there are there is capital out there that tries to find a balance between they want returns on their on their capital. There's no question that returns on investment is essential to the industry, but they also want that to be gently balanced with doing something that's responsible, something that makes them feel good at the end of the process, as opposed to, hey, I made a 20% return on that project, couldn't wait to get out of it.
00:29:01:21 - 00:29:26:18
Curt Johansen: And I don't care what's going on with it now, who cares? You know, this is the type of community where not only do you have to care how it's going to live after the developer's gone, but you have to also be willing to stay with it, to complete it in such a fashion that, you know, all all of those what I call systems are in place.
00:29:26:18 - 00:29:51:10
Curt Johansen: They're operating well. You've done the best you can do. And then for me, when I go back to projects I've done in the past and see them still thriving, you know, with people who love living there. And that to me is you can't put a value on that. It's priceless to me. I mean, because at the end of the day, it's it's it's my art.
00:29:51:10 - 00:30:19:14
Curt Johansen: It's what I do. And I have to feel good that it's benefiting people. Otherwise I would go do something else. And so seeking out partners, lenders, investors who actually have an ethic, a land ethic, if you will, to balance with the returns that they expect. The returns can still be there. It just it just needs to. They just need to be patient and understand.
00:30:19:14 - 00:30:38:02
Curt Johansen: The process may take a little bit more time, but the rewards are wonderful at the end. So that's my belief. And so far I feel very fortunate because I've been able to find those, those types of partners that have helped me achieve. Chief.
00:30:38:04 - 00:31:03:10
Sara Gutterman: Do you feel that there are more aligned partners now in terms of those patient lenders and investors, or do you feel like given, you know, kind of political headwinds around sustainability in general, that those partners, lenders and investors are more focused on reducing risk in other ways?
00:31:03:12 - 00:31:32:20
Curt Johansen: Well, yeah, I know politically things have been slow. Right. And, you know, here in California, we feel it's a little different than in other parts of the country because California is so big and can, you know, do things that I don't know. Somebody told me where the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world, I don't know how that works, but yeah, that's pretty big.
00:31:32:22 - 00:32:19:08
Curt Johansen: But I think I think the idea is that there's there's more and more pressure that has been brought to bear by society. Regardless of what's going on with the federal administration. It'll come and it'll go. It'll change. And you know what? Not society overall has continued to put pressure on corporate America to pay more attention to sustainable development, to be more mindful of doing things so that at least there's not a greenwashing attempt, but a genuine attempt to, you know, reduce our footprint.
00:32:19:09 - 00:32:50:22
Curt Johansen: Or, you know, we've got generations of kids and grandkids and coming, but deserves that. We did the best we could do. And my generation, my my baby boomer, we didn't do that. I think I'm just trying to do penance for all those years. I mean, it's kind of like I'm a baby boomer and we were as materialistic as they come and not thinking past, you know, the next month for ourselves.
00:32:50:23 - 00:33:22:20
Curt Johansen: And so I think the younger generations now are definitely more in tune with it, and that I think that's not going to reverse as a societal thing. And so even as the as the development industry kind of consolidates. So I'm a little bit of a dinosaur or maybe a lot of a dinosaur because it's hard for small to medium sized companies to take on big projects because the cost is so high, right?
00:33:22:21 - 00:33:49:06
Curt Johansen: So the bigger players tend to be the ones who by default do it. But I think even they feel the need to become more aware of this, because I wish I could duplicate myself ten times and have ten of these going at the same time. I can't, but fortunately we have other people in the country who are doing it and doing it really well.
00:33:49:08 - 00:34:09:19
Curt Johansen: I mean, I have I have spent time at conservation communities where I've just just been blown away at the at the commitment and the result. And when they're built out, how, how marvelously operate. And so it's been inspiring to me about about learning from others over the years.
00:34:09:21 - 00:34:14:00
Sara Gutterman: What are some of your other favorite conservation communities that you visited?
00:34:14:06 - 00:34:39:16
Curt Johansen: Well, so if I had to pick a couple, I would say Prairie Crossing is one. Prairie crossing is about 40 minutes north of Chicago. So any of your listeners who happen to be in that area, you can jump on the train from downtown Chicago and be there in 40 minutes to train stops right there, so you don't even have to drive.
00:34:39:18 - 00:35:10:06
Curt Johansen: It's a marvelous conservation community with farming is such a big part of what they do. They they have 100 acres devoted to organic farming, but it's also a teaching farm, so that they actually lease out five acre plots to people who want to actually get into for family farming and open space just is is so important there. But their attention to sustainable details on infrastructure, all their infrastructure is so green.
00:35:10:08 - 00:35:43:16
Curt Johansen: The homes are so energy efficient. I mean, they've done everything really, really well there. Another one is a charming conservation community. It just about 30 minutes south of Atlanta in Georgia. It's called Sereni. That's s e r e NBA. And I'm very close with the developers there. They've done just amazing work in that community to promote the same kinds of sustainable ideas.
00:35:43:16 - 00:36:10:18
Curt Johansen: And the response that both of those projects have had from the buyers has been extraordinary. And so when I see examples like those two of how people made the commitment, stayed with it, got it done, and the level of tranquility and happiness and the people who live there. That's that's one of the most important things to me is, you know, people, life is stressful.
00:36:10:19 - 00:36:35:07
Curt Johansen: People are are struggling more and more with all the turmoil that's going on in the world, I think more than ever they seek tranquil places. And, you know, being embedded in nature creates a sense of tranquility for people because it reminds us through biophilia that we're all connected and that, you know, we're just a small part of a much bigger, much bigger enterprise.
00:36:35:07 - 00:37:05:01
Curt Johansen: And it's it's humbling it and relaxing at the same time. It actually allows you to feel less stressed in. People just seem happier in those types of communities. So again, I wish we had more of them. I'd say altogether there's probably about 300 across the country and various sizes. Some of them get very small, some of them get large, but they're just so open space dominated that there's very little housing.
00:37:05:03 - 00:37:31:20
Curt Johansen: Mine is more of a trying to balance it a little bit more, because the housing crisis is a very real problem here in California. So I'm trying to do my part to also create some diversity of housing. You know, we have affordable housing. We have a qualified housing. We have so much differentiation in what we're doing in our market is very diverse, our buyers very diverse, which I'm very happy about.
00:37:31:21 - 00:37:55:05
Curt Johansen: It's wonderful how that's working out. But we strongly encourage our builders to do designs that include ADUs so that it's multi-generational living here, which has been very, very helpful because that's that's very that's very appealing to a lot of virus in this area.
00:37:55:07 - 00:38:04:19
Sara Gutterman: Wonderful. So, Kurt, if people are in the Bay area, what's the best way to access Lagoon Valley? And if they're not, how do they get more information about the community?
00:38:04:21 - 00:38:35:02
Curt Johansen: So I think Lagoon Valley is our sort of default way to start to get into the process. We do have a couple of other. We do have a couple of other websites, but they can all be linked together. So I think if anybody wants more information, start there and then they'll also be contacts for people that they could reach from Lagoon Valley.
00:38:35:02 - 00:39:00:01
Curt Johansen: Com and there's a there's a wealth of information on that, that basic website and then other websites connected to it. But I would also encourage anybody who wants to just visit, just visit because a picture is worth a thousand words. But when you're actually here, it's palpable. You feel it. And so we would love to host anybody who wants to come out.
00:39:00:02 - 00:39:01:11
Curt Johansen: Take a look.
00:39:01:13 - 00:39:32:19
Sara Gutterman: Wonderful. Well, Curt, this has been a pleasure talking with you today. I really appreciate your perspective, and thank you so much for your long term vision on the Valley. Clearly, you are creating a model that others should replicate. So again, thank you for being on the valuation metric. Thanks to everybody who has listened to this episode. I'm Sara Gutman reminding you to value what matters, because when we do that, we can build a more meaningful and better world.
00:39:32:20 - 00:39:45:08
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