Housing 2.0 creator Sam Rashkin revisits the perfect wall concept and argues it needs rethinking for today's moisture, resilience and workforce pressures, offering a framework for choosing a wall system and case studies on continuous insulation and panelized enclosures.
00:00:00:27 - 00:00:12:28
Mike Collignon: Hello again everyone! You know, today is a fun and festive day. It's Straw hat day, but sadly, I. I do not have one. How about you say you have a straw hat?
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Sam Rashkin: Not even close.
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Mike Collignon: Well, hey, at least I'm not the only one. But today we a Straw Hats. We are going to discuss a new framework to make the right and closure choices in today's high stakes environment. Now, what does that mean? Well, we're going to cover the latest insights on moisture risk management in modern high performance enclosures. We're going to talk about the critical role of continuous insulation and reducing condensation risks.
00:00:38:14 - 00:01:05:09
Mike Collignon: A new decision making framework for choosing the right wall system. And we'll look at how disaster resilience and workforce shortages are redefining enclosure strategies. Here to lead us through are those here to lead us through all those topics. Is Sam Reston the father of Energy Star? Remember energy star. And this one is Be ready home program. Remember the zero energy ready home program.
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Mike Collignon: Sam is also the creator and teacher of the housing 2.0 concept, which is based largely on Sam's latest book, housing 2.0 A Disruption Survival Guide. The full program was established to help empower you are building professionals to design and construct higher performance, healthier, more sustainable homes at a fraction of the cost. Sam's going to lead today's seminar and also address your questions at the end.
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Mike Collignon: Now, before we get started, we need to recognize our main sponsor, Panasonic. Healthy Indoor Living Solutions is helping builders across the country differentiate themselves with powerful, code compliant and cost effective indoor air quality solutions that provide a safer environment for home buyers. Now, during the course of today's presentation, you could submit questions for Sam. Simply use the Q&A function located in the menu bar at the bottom of the zoom window.
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Mike Collignon: I'll review those questions and pose them to Sam after his presentation. Now, sans straw hat, here's Sam Raskin.
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Sam Rashkin: Hey, thank you, Mike, and welcome everyone. This is, rethinking the perfect Wall. Many of you may be familiar with the perfect wall concept, or reintroduce you to it and talk about how we take it to the next level. So welcome to housing 2.0. And what I do today is the wrap up, the Rethinking Seminar series for 2025.
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Sam Rashkin: We already did Rethinking How to Scale Climate solutions in January and April. We did rethinking how to scale systems, built homes. And today we're rethinking the perfect wall. Also look at as we announced workshops for housing 2.0 fundamentals. As we set up about for those around the country this year. Now we're moving also after this, seminar into our Managing Uncertainty series for this year.
00:02:54:13 - 00:03:23:25
Sam Rashkin: And we have a number of really important topics lined up. And June 26th, we'll talk about managing high performance certification, uncertainty with all the news about energy Star, how we prepare for disruption to certification programs. And then on August 21st, managing affordability uncertainty. I want to go over six pillars for substantial cost savings. So I'll give you a little bit of a kind of a coming attraction later in the slideshow.
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Sam Rashkin: September 11th we'll talk about managing workforce uncertainty. Future proofing. Again looking towards systems built solutions that are out there. And October 2nd we'll talk about managing homebuyer uncertainty. And what are the six science based strategies to sell hidden value. And finally on November 13th we'll do managing design trend and certainty. Henry Ford said, if I listen to my customers, I build a faster horse.
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Sam Rashkin: And effectively, this is about looking beyond trends and designing for the future. Based on how we can take that housing user experience to the next level. So how we like to look beyond design trends. So again, I'll look at also for the housing 2.0 fundamentals. This seminar today, the, retaking the perfect wall as five different sections.
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Sam Rashkin: I always start with the housing 2.0 background. Just a quick overview of our whole program we do here. Then I jump into the perfect wall and how it was developed to optimize moisture and thermal control. Then white moisture thermal controls. Not on us anymore, which introduces us to the more perfect wall. And I'll wrap up with some more perfect wall.
00:04:43:00 - 00:05:22:23
Sam Rashkin: Better business case studies. Really amazing examples how we can apply, the more perfect wall concepts. This is, kind of little provocative saying all the great guidance Jesse Perkins provided us needs time to be reevaluated. So, background in housing two point out. As you heard me say before, if you're, past attendee of housing 2.0, the amazing data point that everyone should be really, focused on if they're in the housing industry is that people spend nearly 70% of their time every day in their homes based on natural national lab research, all the places we could be during the day.
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Sam Rashkin: Almost 70% in our homes. A home is where life happens. And that's it's kind of housing is the ultimate consumer product. It's where we spend our lives. And if you look at post-Covid, probably the amount of time we spent has been bumped up, probably to close to 75%. If I had to guess that's not based on data. And so with that, we look at why this housing 2.0 exists, why do we do what we do.
00:05:48:03 - 00:06:12:05
Sam Rashkin: And it's about homes for life happens better. And what we do is we provide a framework fundamentals for how you can be consistent, providing a better user experience at lower cost. And most of my audience base and all my background are high performance housing professionals. And your focus on the performance user experience. And what I'm here to say is it's a must have.
00:06:12:05 - 00:06:38:25
Sam Rashkin: It's where I spent my life and dedicated so much time. But I'm also here to say it's not enough. There are other critical experiences that drive why people buy homes and affect 70% of lives that they spend in those homes. The design experience, the community experience, the quality experience and sales experience, predominantly service are all critical as or more critical than performance.
00:06:38:27 - 00:07:03:09
Sam Rashkin: And so they hold up the housing user experience. Stool. And there are about 160 best practices baked into the fundamentals that we cover. So how do we get there? What's the secret sauce. How do we do better from lower cost? It all begins by realizing we need to rethink our business models, and we want to go from a first cost base model to a housing 2.0 user experience based business model.
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Sam Rashkin: So in the first cost, we spend as little as we can on experts and special features and user experience model. We invest in nursing experiences that are absolutely guaranteed to make living in the house better. And the expertise it takes to get there. So we're spending more upfront. But the secret sauce is how we save cost. And the six pillars I'll talk more about in detail in the presentation coming up later in the series is we go from excessive waste to optimizing lean, from excessive complexity to optimizing simple, from excessive approach to systems as an afterthought to optimizing systems integration.
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Sam Rashkin: From excessive quality assurance expenses that we just absorb to optimizing quality from excessive customization to optimizing choice. You know, you get the perception of customization without nearly as much as we provide and without excessive cycle time and process by optimizing productivity. And these are we'll cover these in more detail. But the net is this cost difference savings plus all the added value from the better experience enhanced wellness and lower ownership cost.
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Sam Rashkin: And the combination of all that is about 30 to 50% cost advantage. So this is kind of what we do with housing 2.0, either with seminars directly with builders and other training. We do and empirical results. I love that back it up are always impressive with the, numbers we work with directly. Or I remember watching this presentation and just being amazed at how good a job wash construction did just with design optimization.
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Sam Rashkin: One of the five experiences actually, when they focused on, in 124th industry, Portland, Oregon, a project they were going to do where they're building a second building to a project that was started, a while ago. And the second building, compared to the first building, actual cost of 24% lower by optimizing the design and the resource for all this is housing 2.0 Disruption Survival Guide.
00:09:15:10 - 00:09:39:09
Sam Rashkin: This is really, been a massive amount of research that I've been curating, and then vetting for over five years with hundreds of housing executives. It's got tremendous amount of content and graphics, and it's based on over 360 citations. And I have my favorite guest expert friends contributing essays. So it's really a great reference for how all this plays out.
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Sam Rashkin: And that's the background on and two panel. So let's jump into the perfect law. And again it's really focused about optimizing moisture and thermal control. And the basis of all of this is how everything is changed. When we went to high performance enclosures in a low performance enclosure, we had a lot of thermal flow going through the assembly.
00:09:59:23 - 00:10:25:21
Sam Rashkin: A lot of airflow going through, and it was high performance, tremendously reduced thermal and airflow. And the consequence of that was we created colder surfaces inside the assembly on the cold side. In cold climates, that would be the sheathing on the outboard side facing the exterior. And hot climates it would be drywall on the inside. So we had these colder surfaces and we had reduced flows.
00:10:25:24 - 00:10:52:07
Sam Rashkin: And what's that all mean? What means we have a lot more moisture risk because we have more wetting potential. If the surfaces are colder on the cold side inside the cavity, more propensity for conversation and is less drying potential because there's less thermal flow going through to dry out any wetness that may occur. So this is kind of a double whammy, and it's a critical risk that has to be managed and solutions basically.
00:10:52:07 - 00:11:15:16
Sam Rashkin: You mean bulletproof push bulk moisture control. And you have to control vapor flow. So this is what drove a lot of the concept of the perfect law. And the other one is just how much thermal bridging risk there was in traditional frand enclosures. The predominant ones are conventional framing and advanced framing, which are about 20 to 30% framing factors.
00:11:15:18 - 00:11:41:07
Sam Rashkin: That means about one fifth to, 30% of a wall is loaded with one third or so. The hard value of the cavity with the insulation. And there are some are more advanced wall assemblies, with framing that I use a very, very small percentage of homes, staggered studs and double wall framing. And even they, I will suggest, are excessive thermal projects like anything 10% or higher.
00:11:41:10 - 00:12:10:27
Sam Rashkin: Thermal bridging, we can do better and should be doing better. So this is a problem that needs to be solved is moisture risk and some more bridging risk. And so it leads to these building science risk and risk management imperatives that Joe Steve Burke addressed bulk moisture control, airflow control, thermal version control and vapor flow control. And so, the risk solution was, we could do a couple things.
00:12:10:27 - 00:12:35:29
Sam Rashkin: We could do advanced framing with continuous insulation or six circle performance light panels on those studs would be examples how we manage all this. But Joe's focus is predominantly on the continuous insulation assembly. This is is basic perfect wall, innovation that was so important and so critical to, any clarity to what we needed to do as the housing industry.
00:12:35:29 - 00:13:03:22
Sam Rashkin: We needed a wall that manage our moisture risk, thermal bridging risk. And so this is his basic, diagram. He would go around the country teaching and it reduce condensation by adding outboard insulation outside the structure that, through its thermal control, would reduce the surface temperature in the cavity and therefore reduce the condensation risk. Secondly, you had a continuous insulation covering almost all the framing.
00:13:03:25 - 00:13:27:12
Sam Rashkin: So you have no or hardly any thermal bridging with continuous insulation. And then lastly, of course you had the bulk moisture control layer, which has to be bulletproof and rigorous comprehensive. So this is a basic perfect wall. And you could flip this to the roofs and underneath the floor. But it always works the same way. And so this is where all around the country throws appearing and teaching this.
00:13:27:14 - 00:13:51:16
Sam Rashkin: And again what's important to me is what's interesting is so much attention to how we fix framing and very little it was, addressed to substructure insulated panels, which offer a plug and play risk management strategy with a fraction of the challenges managing airflow, thermal bridging and moisture vapor flow. So, we'll come more back to the sliders again to the perfect wall.
00:13:51:16 - 00:14:15:17
Sam Rashkin: But this is where we wound up. And it leads me to the next module. Why? Moisture thermal control is not enough. And so it's great that we have the building science risk support, moisture airflow thermal bridging, vapor flow, all those addressed with the perfect wall that Joe introduced. But then submit. We have other imperatives. And what I want to talk about next is disaster.
00:14:15:20 - 00:14:44:05
Sam Rashkin: Flood impact with flying debris and hurricanes and windstorms hitting the home, earthquake resistant stocks, wildfire resistance, pest resistance, pests and most people's list are not a disaster risk. Take a state like Florida, where they have $1 billion of termite damage a year. That's $1 billion termite event every year equivalent. And that's your metric. Normally for high impact disaster events or $1 billion events.
00:14:44:07 - 00:15:10:23
Sam Rashkin: And every year Florida has $1 billion termite event. So I think it should be included as a disaster risk. So with that in mind, we look around and we go, Holy cow, we don't consider disaster risk. It's just getting incredibly worse or worse. We're accelerating the frequency of disasters, the magnitude of the disasters and the expense in terms of the number of billion dollar events.
00:15:10:26 - 00:15:35:27
Sam Rashkin: And it's all kind of by science being connected and linked to the record temperatures and the land and the ocean. And it's just driving, through a lot of more moisture evaporation and a lot of, lot greater temperature gradients that create these, the disaster events on steroids. So disaster risk is growing exponentially. We all know that.
00:15:35:29 - 00:16:10:23
Sam Rashkin: And the other factor about this is that there's nowhere to hide virtually. If you look at disaster maps from Kim and others about where in the country you're exposed to droughts, winters, storms and cyclones and tornadoes and wildfires and flooding and severe storms. Like I said, there's almost nowhere to hide virtually the entire country. And more importantly, if you look at the risk of exposure, we calculated about six point trillion dollars of estimated market value for 43% of homes located in high disaster risk, parts of the country.
00:16:10:25 - 00:16:42:29
Sam Rashkin: And why you should care is the insurance companies aren't even even near ready to manage this much exposure. Thus we have the availability of insurance is decreasing exponentially, and pulling out of markets as fast as you can turn around every day. You see other stories, and it's because of just the rapidly growing exposure, the stark increases in cost of construction to replace what's been damaged, and then the increases that are coming down from the insurance market.
00:16:42:29 - 00:17:10:00
Sam Rashkin: So just even the availability of insurance is hard. And that gets reflected in the cost, on average, over a 40% increase in homeowners insurance in some parts of the country, it's doubling or tripling for some homeowners, just the insane cost and insurance is making it a greater expense. And the energy for many, many homeowners, if not most. And the other part of that disaster risk is that it's manageable.
00:17:10:02 - 00:17:32:23
Sam Rashkin: Here, here's a long building standing after the Oakland Hills, fire. This is bigger than when I was in California. That more recent fires have long building standing examples as well. In LA. But in this one, you know, you look and you see the basic, best practices work have invented noncombustible roofing roof materials. You have, vented attics.
00:17:32:26 - 00:17:59:01
Sam Rashkin: Noncombustible decks and materials and, and walls. And, you know, the basic the basics are really effective. And so it's really important to manage. And the same thing with, hurricane risk. This is the long building standing after Hurricane Harvey, Mexico Beach. And again, the basic best practices work. A hip roof deflects wind better than a gave a roof and especially vented attic.
00:17:59:01 - 00:18:23:00
Sam Rashkin: In this case, the attic had closed off. Straight up against a the roof sheathing and to strengthen the roof as well as provided insulation, you have impact resistant, insulated. It constantly forms that your concrete poured in the middle of the insulated blocks. And then you have these, concrete pilings which are used to raise a whole building, a whole story above the floods and the storm surges.
00:18:23:00 - 00:18:45:06
Sam Rashkin: That would happen. And a real, very rigorous, continuous load path of all the loads from the roof to the walls to the foundation, everything was being, connected and managed. It just works. And when you see all the devastation around this building, it's amazing how effective it is. Across the building behind you notice the same roof and things going on.
00:18:45:06 - 00:19:10:28
Sam Rashkin: So again, we know how to manage the risk. So disaster risk is really important. But there's a third risk that we have to address. And that's workforce. The availability skills and productivity of the workforce. Under stress first of all is just the age of the workforce. So the Bureau of Labor Statistics, reveals that the average construction worker ages over 42.
00:19:11:00 - 00:19:43:05
Sam Rashkin: And another study done by the Home Builders Institute tells us, for every size aging workforce, workers retiring out of construction, there are only two in the pipeline to replace them. It's just a tsunami of, of, of this damage ahead when we just don't have enough workers. And, we already see this also reflected in the reduced skills 62% of construction firms reports candidates lack the essential skills needed to work in the industry.
00:19:43:08 - 00:20:15:08
Sam Rashkin: And why that's so important is that causes delays, which then drives up costs. At the same time, we're in a absolute affordability, crisis mode. We're or we're beyond crisis to whatever comes next. It's just everything's working against us. So the workforce is so critical. And one study, again, from, the Home Builders Institute quantified it about 700,000 plus new workers needed each year to meet the, 1.5 million, shortage that we have.
00:20:15:08 - 00:20:44:19
Sam Rashkin: That number will keep oscillating 700, 600, 50,000. But the number of workers is just so far beyond what we're replacing and putting into the industry. And the other part of workforce, as I mentioned, productivity is just not there. Here is impressive. What impressive productivity growth looks like. This is the auto industry. You start making cars in a back room in 1903, and you go to assembly line in 1913.
00:20:44:21 - 00:20:54:10
Sam Rashkin: And by 2020, it's just all this robotics and advanced manufacturing.
00:20:54:12 - 00:21:18:06
Sam Rashkin: Now compare that to housing and how we build the enclosure. And you see it go from impressive productivity growth to glacial. Here's a home under construction 150 years ago in 1877, in Omaha, Nebraska. Courtesy the Smithsonian Archives. And then you can look at a home being built today and go, where's the innovation? You know, where's the productivity?
00:21:18:06 - 00:21:43:12
Sam Rashkin: Now? You see the same products strewn across the jobsite. The same, excessive wood framing. And then you see the workers in precarious worker working conditions in terms of just hovering over their probably without enough safety for their, construction. You see, we're just building with it partly, maybe for innovations. You know, we work from the loom framing the Western platform.
00:21:43:12 - 00:22:12:25
Sam Rashkin: We work from dimensional lumber to, engineered lumber and better tools. And it's it's just stunning. The lack of what's happened in the 150 years. The result is if you measure the productivity, there's a 50% decline since 1968 and building productivity, while every other industry has become more productive and, and you see this in the growing cycle time that's being measured.
00:22:12:27 - 00:22:34:29
Sam Rashkin: One of the last measurements, cycle time that increased to 8.6 months on average to build a new home, production builders may be closer to four months or three months, but this is an insane amount of time to build a house, and it adds so much extra cost. And it's up from 8.3 months in 2022 to 2023.
00:22:35:01 - 00:23:00:11
Sam Rashkin: And why I gotta keep saying cost is there's a cost to be in business to operate a business. It because, research organization that studies years and years ago, quantified it at 5 to $800 a day, I assume to be higher today. Many builders will argue that their costs are lower. I would submit many builders don't really know their costs or do real detailed calculations, and they're all the interesting charges.
00:23:00:13 - 00:23:28:05
Sam Rashkin: Office expenses, leases on trucks, everything that goes into operating business. So you have stick framing is for production builders 95 days. Remember, it's 8.6 months for the industry average to construct a home. But let's say it's 95 days for a production builder offsite, 65 days. And that's quickly 15, almost $25,000. A saving just saves. Just some time on operations cost.
00:23:28:07 - 00:23:51:19
Sam Rashkin: So again, that's carrying cost efficiency interest cost mitigation. But that's only the first tier of cost savings. Then you have velocity. If I'm building more homes per month and every home my margins 20,000 per home, I build one, two, three, 4 or 5 times a month. That's 2040, 6000 thousand dollars of extra revenue per month. Velocity is huge and embarrassed.
00:23:51:20 - 00:24:16:03
Sam Rashkin: You know, there's so many changes and forces acting, market inflation, economic uncertainty. Every the longer you build, the more risk you are. Risk is money. So you have these three cost factors. And time is huge for the industry. And again here's a McKinsey and company kind of mapping out of the productivity difference between manufacturing and construction.
00:24:16:05 - 00:24:39:00
Sam Rashkin: With high tech industries, it's about A3X difference, but manufacturing has 1.7. That's more gains than construction. And construction, I mention, again, is the only industry that has decreasing productivity. When McKinsey and company put pen to paper and rigorous analysis to come up with, how much does that cost the industry? Remember, we cover all the cost of time.
00:24:39:03 - 00:25:09:28
Sam Rashkin: It's about $200 billion labor productivity gap suffered by the construction industry. And they feel a lot of it could be closed by adopting advanced manufacturing methods. And so I get back to all these workforce issues, disaster issues on top of the building science risks. And so maybe it's time to rethink the perfect wall and add these other risks, you know, disaster, flood impact wall, far past workforce availability, skill cost.
00:25:10:01 - 00:25:34:28
Sam Rashkin: Those have to eventually be factored into the decision process to inform the best choice you can make. When I look at all these details we have for these high performance walls, and I look at the shrinking quality and, availability of workforce, this is tough to build. These are complicated assemblies. This is and this is in a outdoor environment setting with all sorts of other constraints.
00:25:35:01 - 00:25:55:02
Sam Rashkin: This is not so perfect. So let's talk about a more perfect wall and how we get there. And this is where I've put together a little tool. And I'm going to ask everyone again this this is me trying to use my best, experience. I have to put in some strawman assessments here of what's the risk for different assemblies.
00:25:55:07 - 00:26:21:18
Sam Rashkin: So at a glance you can start making decisions. All this could be much better. We can get 2030 really good experts around a virtual table or real table and hammer these out in a better way. But what's not what's important is not the precise results that you see on this tool, but that we need some way to really gauge the risk, measure the risk and factor it into the decisions.
00:26:21:20 - 00:26:44:13
Sam Rashkin: So here the first thing is to building science risk. And for cycle will also I mean options I can build on site same wall frame wall with continuous insulation concrete block in southern Florida and some markets still build concrete block and something called it insulated concrete form, which is the inverse of a concrete block where the concrete is in the middle of the insulation on the outside.
00:26:44:16 - 00:27:08:28
Sam Rashkin: Which looks much like a concrete block, but it's assembled in the field. So the cycle. So with frame walls you have all this high risk. Now again, the key is high is red. Medium risk is, yellow. Caution low risk green. Don't go. Goes low. It's good green slow. But you see all red frame walls for thermal bridging.
00:27:09:00 - 00:27:32:17
Sam Rashkin: Condensation in these assemblies involve more. So you have to manage all those risks now with continuous insulation, thermal bridging goes good conversations. Less of a risk. But it's more than concrete blocks. So it's kind of yellow. And Baltimore is still the same risk as it is with any assembly. Have to be really great. Managing bulk moisture. Now concrete block has really bad thermal abrasion.
00:27:32:17 - 00:27:56:13
Sam Rashkin: But really because it it can withstand moisture and all its forms and it it's such a, hydrothermal battery for absorbing moisture. It's great for condensation, bulk moisture and insulated concrete forms, and that's pretty much the same. Plus I have thermal bridging. So you have these choices and you see why kind of working now for systems built I can build a frame wall in a factory.
00:27:56:15 - 00:28:18:15
Sam Rashkin: So just build it indoors and has the exact same profile for bridge thermal bridging condensation. That's keyboard pressure and a frame wall. Continuous insulation can be built in a factory. I think. But you'd have to use something like, extended plating being, which is a detail I won't go into right now, but that would, again, the same profile as you would for building an on site.
00:28:18:15 - 00:28:51:15
Sam Rashkin: It just the factory doesn't change that. But we have structural insulated panels you mentioned earlier, which has really outstanding thermal bridging. Amazing lowest condensation risk because there's no vapor flow through that sandwich panel. And it has the same moisture risk because it's it's a skin wood skin. You have to manage the moisture. So threat. And they have all these concrete precast or manufactured concrete systems precast insulated concrete wall panels, insulated concrete panels which are kind of like a insulated concrete form, but a panel versus a block.
00:28:51:15 - 00:29:18:03
Sam Rashkin: So more site built, more systems built in insulated core walls panel. I'll show you an example later, but it's a concrete sandwich around the insulation. So those walls are amazing at bridging condensation bulk moisture. It's amazing how powerful my energy building science risk. Then comes disaster risk. The frame wall again is not good for most disasters. Flood impact not very good.
00:29:18:03 - 00:29:39:14
Sam Rashkin: Good for earthquake wall fire and pest resistance. Not so good in the same same old continuous insulation. Concrete block is great. Flood impact not so good for earthquake and really good for wall. Fire and pest and insulated concrete forms are almost the same, except they're not quite as good. They're a lot better than concrete blocks for earthquake.
00:29:39:14 - 00:30:03:17
Sam Rashkin: And, they're better for wall fire resistance and pest insistence that, so you kind of see how this works out for systems built again, those frame walls and same walls, continuous insulation stay the same, but structural insulated panels are not great for flood. Much better than frame walls for impact, but not as good as concrete. They're good for earthquake.
00:30:03:17 - 00:30:28:14
Sam Rashkin: They're really good for wall fire because it's something to the attics and the better for pest resistance, especially with borate treated, skin. So, you know, a little better. And then the concrete assemblies, precast concrete walls and second panels and core wall with, insulated concrete are really great earthquakes. They need a little more attention. So you kind of see how that works out.
00:30:28:16 - 00:30:56:27
Sam Rashkin: And then for workforce risk, all the cyclones require a lot of labor and attention on skill. Concrete block and inside concrete form are pretty simple and have a lot more inherent, plug and play benefits in terms of air leakage control and insulation quality. So, the skill requirements are actually pretty good for them. When we go to systems, built walls, all of them have better workforce benefits because, the built in a plant.
00:30:56:27 - 00:31:14:28
Sam Rashkin: So they'll ability, skill, productivity, a little bit of skill issues with frame walls, and same walls with continuous insulation require more details in the field that has to be managed and integrated than you do with the other panels. So there you have my system. And maybe I'm wrong with some of these. So we can change that.
00:31:15:00 - 00:31:38:21
Sam Rashkin: But when you look at the whole package, you look at this, you have basically space, basically at a glance and ability to see where the risks lie with which wall assemblies, and we can work this out and kind of figure how to optimize this. But I call your attention to the big chunk of systems built options that have incredibly good risk profile.
00:31:38:21 - 00:32:04:13
Sam Rashkin: So let's look at, case studies where the costs they're so good at managing risk, I think they've yielded some really good outcomes. So, the first company that I talk about. So no know what insulated concrete core wall. We're going to innovate this system, bring it to market completely automated and really be disruptors. And the name of that company is, it's based in Florida.
00:32:04:13 - 00:32:27:02
Sam Rashkin: Now we're looking to build a plant in Texas. They, they, they think the world demands building different and better. And the challenge they had building Florida, remember the termite capital of the world, the hurricane capital of the country, all sorts of, impact resistance and flooding resistance. You have everything coming, actually. So they had to select the perfect ball for Florida.
00:32:27:04 - 00:33:01:10
Sam Rashkin: And when you look at basically wood versus concrete, you know, risk by risk, it's pretty stunning to see just how compelling the, resilience risk management advantage is for concrete, because sometimes we aren't even thinking about all the risks we observe with wood mold, right dimensional stability, warping, expansion, contraction. All of that goes away. This concrete, disaster site impact resistance, pest resistance, non-combat stability, all that goes away with concrete.
00:33:01:17 - 00:33:26:13
Sam Rashkin: And it's a heavy risk with, with and then and workforce. Minimum jobsite waste minimize labor and you know, not having to have all this management check the job site as you do with wood. All that goes away with systems concrete versus flake. So they just rethought the perfect wall. They said, we're building in Florida. We're going to build an assembly that's bulletproof.
00:33:26:15 - 00:33:49:22
Sam Rashkin: And so first thing you should notice is that the time it takes 22 contractors and eight months to build the average home, that's the U.S. Census Bureau data, for an average home, again, let's assume for production builder, it's 3 to 4 months, but that is incredible contrast to what it is for that one system, 30 days at a plant.
00:33:49:22 - 00:34:13:22
Sam Rashkin: And then they're done. And that's where maybe a few people come in to steal, to do some painting and minor work. It's incredible how lean it is and how how short it is. So I did some back in the envelope calculations. What does that reduce? Cycle time and increased velocity. Velocity, more sales. And they're doing that. They did better almost 500 500 homes last year in Florida.
00:34:13:25 - 00:34:38:24
Sam Rashkin: And let's say they reduced cycle time from 30 to 90 days to compare them to a traditional production builder. Well, you say 15%, an average margin. And the average sales price for homes, going up down there cleaning with might be 600,000. The cycle time savings and velocity benefits ended up $45 million, or $90,000 per home for each of the 500 homes.
00:34:38:27 - 00:35:07:23
Sam Rashkin: So, in other words, the choice to say we're going to innovate the enclosure, save them $90,000, perhaps not some huge investment. And they're a vertically integrated company. They buy the land, they develop. They had the surgery, the they make the homes that it's some of the homes on the field. They're they're the wholesaler, which is if you see me speak about offsite, this is why it sells just because we have the Sonoma A builder, that's when it's incredibly difficult.
00:35:07:25 - 00:35:30:21
Sam Rashkin: And so this is their plan. This is a complete, completely automated robotic system. All of that. The categories had drawings go in and all the forms are set automatically by the machine. So the concrete can be poured automatically creating these two inch panels. And then get secure to about 8 to 10,000 p.s.i they have bulletproof commercial flow. Vapor flow just can't go through these.
00:35:30:26 - 00:35:51:21
Sam Rashkin: This is waterproof assembly. And then then they are sandwiched together in two panels. You can see there's hardly any people working on the line here. But when you get down here, there's some people working, putting insulation on top of one panel that can be sandwiched the other panels as well, some of the wiring and plumbing that might be in the wall.
00:35:51:23 - 00:36:17:09
Sam Rashkin: And then you create these wall assemblies ready to go, a sealed in sequence stage to how they will be assembled piece by piece by piece and numbered, ready to go. They make the bathrooms in pods. This is the pod in the bathroom. Looks something like this. And then the roofs are made with still, they still have a, a performing machine that takes the steel and bends it into, channels.
00:36:17:09 - 00:36:41:00
Sam Rashkin: And then they make the steel trusses in the same plant to do in the concrete in the middle of factory. And what's amazing is they also make the stem walls and the stairs, the outdoor stairs, the indoor stairs, everything for all that is made with the concrete in the plants. So this is field assembled foundation. And no, there's a high, there is above flood elevation for maximum resilience.
00:36:41:02 - 00:37:00:29
Sam Rashkin: And look at what this looks like when all the panels are assembled and I say bulletproof. This is like this is total protection. I mean, this is a safe home. You've heard of safe room. This is a safe home. And the bathroom itself has a concrete lid. So that's a safe room in a safe home. And the stairs you see there are made in the plane and the foundation.
00:37:01:02 - 00:37:24:04
Sam Rashkin: There's just no air flow going through here. There's no, thermal flow beyond that can get through the insulation in the sandwich. No vapor flow. It's just totally risk management. These are the stairs they made. And they put in these very nice tiles and, on site. So that's one of the things. So it's installed on site. You see how the panels are clipped together with the angles that are set in the panels so they can assemble in the field.
00:37:24:06 - 00:37:44:04
Sam Rashkin: This is like kind of it looks like assembled. The streets look like this. So it looks like a traditional neighborhood. Here's a from the literature. This is story at from the thousands. And this might be about 6 or 8 months old, solid from 300,000. Some of the prices are up to 600,000, some higher. But now it looks like a regular home side.
00:37:44:04 - 00:38:07:24
Sam Rashkin: You just don't even know where it's at. It's a concrete home. It is again, total protection, no termite risk. Which also means I'm not selling all this trimming aside in the soil all around the homes, all year long in these neighborhoods, as you deal with all the other neighborhoods in Florida. So all that mid-sized that's going into the ground and their developments, and this is a total package.
00:38:07:29 - 00:38:30:11
Sam Rashkin: If I, if I, if I, I call home tour and what are the what is the user experience for this product. First of all on affordability the cycle times reducing costs. And because it's a bullet proof house, they negotiated insurance premiums that dwarfed the energy savings you get from a zero energy. Really on the insurance benefit for the homeowner might be a 2 or 3.
00:38:30:11 - 00:39:00:10
Sam Rashkin: It's a better, savings than the energy savings. That's how important the science is in Florida. The sales process is mass customization. I get all that access of choice other builders do. They take out of the equation? It's very simple, limited choices. But you have ultra low bills, ultra low maintenance and wellness. All this resilience protection, moisture, hurricanes, live termite a safe room, enhanced indoor air quality with all the hard surfaces and in the future you have all this advanced quality.
00:39:00:17 - 00:39:29:17
Sam Rashkin: The home will be like so much more resilient and visually will demonstrate such, superior ability to withstand everything that nature has to throw at it. So the durability and my quick calculations, this is over $100,000 of cost savings, and it evaluates. So this is where you look at how compelling it could be if when you take your process of what's my best perfect wall assembling my best enclosure.
00:39:29:20 - 00:39:53:13
Sam Rashkin: And you look at it in a really comprehensive way, what is what is what is the total equation of everything? I'm getting? This is impressive. And and then they're selling home insurance. The competitors are going to have to cite and figure out what they're going to do with insurance. Just not alone optimizes probably their ability to attract buyers.
00:39:53:15 - 00:40:20:13
Sam Rashkin: One more example case study is here is our risk management tool for the more perfect wall. And I always you know you know me I'm a big fan. I always talk about service all night. Seminars comes up quite a bit. I just feel it's. And I'm to utilize innovation, partly because it goes to market in a way that I think it's price is higher than it needs to be, but it has an amazing risk management profile, as you can see in the tool.
00:40:20:15 - 00:40:41:22
Sam Rashkin: So, I can try to build all these layers and do all this to get to Joe's perfect wall. And then when you look at what it really entails, take that concept sketch to an actual construction and then all the moving parts you have to manage. I know this is a tough business, and I'm not just managing disaster and workforce.
00:40:41:25 - 00:41:01:07
Sam Rashkin: So in contrast, when I look at assets and how elegantly simple it is that manages the building for us and the disaster and workforce. Let me give you some examples. So here are all the er, very details I have to worry about with traditional framing. This is the formal bypass checklist kind of summarized for you from the. And if you start sort of at home program.
00:41:01:13 - 00:41:21:10
Sam Rashkin: I know this because when I put it together for version two and organize it this way, just so it can be aligned with how we build homes and look what goes away when we shift the steps. It's just stunning. You have you're building a complete air barrier assembly, the attics, the walls, floors. Then you use them for floors.
00:41:21:17 - 00:41:43:20
Sam Rashkin: It's just a perfect assembly. It's like a Yeti cooler and the only possible air barrier detail left would be start a whole house them in a house so that a setback, which I don't recommend. So virtually everything goes away. You know, all the air barriers and all the details are all come through for simplicity. Many of you see my presentations.
00:41:43:22 - 00:42:06:04
Sam Rashkin: I can cover these. But what I will tell you, I understand this is a lot of risk reduction. And then we look at all the excellent details we have to manage. Again, these just come from all the basic, auditing of everything that has to be done when you do a frame home and it's about a half mile cracks or windows and doors and smoke lights, and it's all these penetrations and geometry.
00:42:06:07 - 00:42:25:19
Sam Rashkin: And when I go to steps, the biggest chunk of that goes away. It's still some penetrations that have to be managed. And you still have steel plates you have to seal, but it's just easier with steps because of all the big, size panels and much smaller number of joints between the panels. And you have the traditional framing.
00:42:25:21 - 00:42:50:19
Sam Rashkin: So huge benefits. And then you get to have a center wall. This is our fridge. National lab, ran some analysis and I looked at a six, four inch wall compared to a six inch from wall, one with quality installation and one with typical installation. So for, foreign wall VR 14 and then, a typical installation for two by six would be our 11.
00:42:50:22 - 00:43:10:27
Sam Rashkin: And if you had the extra resources and cost and imposed higher quality, you can get it almost close to what a four inch wall is, but still less. And when you look at all the savings, managing grade one insulation, all the less work to put into air sealing and barriers and rework and reduce waste. You have less dumpsters, less time.
00:43:10:29 - 00:43:34:16
Sam Rashkin: You have 30 more square feet because two inches around the entire perimeter, on a 1500 square foot house, right up to about 30ft², and that's worth $500 a square foot or $400 a square foot, or $300 a square foot. You know, that's 10 to 15,000 right there. What's the value of all the resilience benefits? And no dimensionally accurate walls and stronger walls and higher quality construction?
00:43:34:18 - 00:43:54:00
Sam Rashkin: All this is serious numbers as you're going to get to the right number. This is the kind of calculus you have to do. And then a big thing is when you look at a cyberattack, you have no topside air barrier. And so we put a ton of insulation up there, help the investment compress. And, you know, people walk through it around cable or wires.
00:43:54:00 - 00:44:20:17
Sam Rashkin: They don't they they're upset it and it's just wasted space and advantage. And with a symbiotic it's 100% air barrier, top and bottom. No missing topside. If you're putting ducts and and heating cooling equipment in the attic, now, you're taking a 40% hit on the efficiency of that equipment. So this is a CIP space that's for free, that can be converted into spaces like this.
00:44:20:20 - 00:44:43:14
Sam Rashkin: So that's a lot of extra value. And then we mention all the resilience benefits. So I'm just going to wrap up with one quick case study. Ron Howard from the Very get-Go understands who's building a consumer product, the ultimate consumer product of home. And he has a very target audience. He wants workforce housing. He builds in the mountains of North Carolina.
00:44:43:17 - 00:45:05:14
Sam Rashkin: And he didn't come up with a design and then said, now let me go to the ground as an afterthought. All the systems like structure from the very beginning. This one was designed with optimizing six simple roofs, simple footprint. He traded off the basement, for the attic space is getting. And he put the house on a slab at lower cost.
00:45:05:17 - 00:45:29:12
Sam Rashkin: He has, the walls and everything are designed for the span of, roof panels. The floor plan allows for the post and beam locations. No exterior wall plumbing has four inch walls versus two six inch walls at about another 20 30ft of space. And using the attic client for storage and for vaulted ceilings because on two foot dimensions everything works.
00:45:29:12 - 00:46:00:11
Sam Rashkin: And then he invests all these savings into all this quality. You don't see what everyone else has of the for siding in this market for new construction, which is cheap vinyl using cementitious siding, which is really quality colors and trim. He has the floor plan again on the left. You see the columns of designing on the wall, so you can put the ridge in the middle and round the roof, and meet the span capabilities of the roof panels and the bathroom and conceal a plumbing that's not in the exterior walls.
00:46:00:11 - 00:46:24:19
Sam Rashkin: Easy to do. He has basically, it's very simple footprint. He has, extra square footage, as I mentioned, because the walls are thinner to switch dimensions. And here's the section for the house. And there's the storage above the bedrooms on the left side is floor plan over here, the bedrooms. So that's all storage above there. And then he has vaulted ceilings in the rest of the house.
00:46:24:19 - 00:46:50:17
Sam Rashkin: The great room, the dining and kitchen. So yes, he's got all the advantage of, military space because the construction. And look how simple the roof plan is, how easy it is to build the steps. And so if you just kind of framing that, we ran detailed calculations through a cost calculator we developed for the space industry. If you ran the numbers and said, okay, what would training cost me and what would steps cost me?
00:46:50:20 - 00:47:13:17
Sam Rashkin: You get sticker shock is a builder of all the six packages $14,000 higher than the semi package. But what about all the insulation that I have to install? Assuming I don't have to do? What about for all the value of having a smaller mechanical system, the value of having, less quality work, less dumpsters? What about all the extra space I have for storage?
00:47:13:17 - 00:47:39:11
Sam Rashkin: What about all the extra vaulted states, the extra floor span, floor plan space? Because the thinner walls, when you run all those calculations and all the benefits services, $400 lower cost. And it it's $37,000 a value for resilience, for extra square footage, for extra quality. It's just incredible what happens and flips when you do a detailed full calculation.
00:47:39:14 - 00:48:13:28
Sam Rashkin: 37,000 plus our cost advantage using sets. So it's a great case study of how builders delivering this amazing quality workforce housing for under $200,000. So I don't know anyone's close to what he's doing in that market. Probably any market. And it's only made possible because he did this fully integrated approach to optimizing enclosure. So final word on that it the more perfect wall if you want to optimize business, you got to optimize enclosure.
00:48:13:28 - 00:48:37:25
Sam Rashkin: It's absolutely critical part of your business as well. Optimizing enclosure. You've got to optimize the design integration. If you're building the ultimate consumer product you can't have afterthoughts. But I do that structure. And what I do about mechanical, what I do about forming all your entire set of systems, storage, everything that goes into your home has to be integrated into design.
00:48:37:25 - 00:48:54:17
Sam Rashkin: From the very first time you start crafting the floor plan from CAD or pencil, paper, or every do. This is how you get to the more perfect wall. I hope this makes sense. This is me again signing off and handing back to Mike.
00:48:54:19 - 00:49:29:15
Mike Collignon: All right. Thank you. Sam. We certainly have questions that have come in. And if, other people have other questions, please feel free to submit those via the Q&A. Option down there near the bottom of the zoom window. So, Sam, Mark wanted to know, you know, he's in agreement with you that there's little risk of condensation in SIPs through vapor diffusion, but, his comment is that air leakage can deposit a lot of condensation in SIP assemblies that aren't, well, air sealed.
00:49:29:17 - 00:49:36:19
Mike Collignon: And once that condensation is in the assembly, how do you get it out?
00:49:36:21 - 00:50:02:29
Sam Rashkin: Good question Mark. It is, I think, and, essentially you get it out because sips are inherently airtight. I almost defy you to go around the country and find a sip home. That's over 1.5 ACH plastic. I'm probably, if all the home side seem to sip homes without even going for certification programs sometimes are just coming in at one, 1.1, point six the passive house level.
00:50:03:01 - 00:50:36:02
Sam Rashkin: So there's hardly any, airflow to worry about. But on top of that, SIPs are installed with belts and suspenders. So when a when a panel's joined together, the way it's usually set up is there are splines that go on either side inside the, outer facing of each panel. And some panels go together and they use foam to seal where the insulation one panel meets the other panel, and then the splines are in there to kind of create the structural connection.
00:50:36:05 - 00:50:57:06
Sam Rashkin: And then they tape the joint of it. So it's taped and it's foam sealed. The same with the roof parts. And so why is so tight. The one risk factor you have a set will be at the roof where you have to be absolutely like again bulletproof. You can't let that's where all the moisture is basically collecting because of stack effect.
00:50:57:09 - 00:51:19:28
Sam Rashkin: So there's a basic detail for how we slash the ridge joint. Again, you put in the ridge, you flash over the top or some. Sometimes you use like a house wrap material on top of it and tape it to the roof panels so you can have no, way for the vapor flow to get through to the ridge where that's when you can run into trouble.
00:51:19:28 - 00:51:47:16
Sam Rashkin: So the one risk stack we have to manage is, the roof seam now. And if you saw my tool, I have read from bulk moisture and sips because you you've got to be really militant about managing the airflow, just like you say. But you have so much less to manage than you do with conventional framed assemblies. I mean, just it's so much less, so much less joints and, less detail.
00:51:47:23 - 00:51:56:07
Sam Rashkin: So it's easier and it can be done, but you got to manage it to your point. And so thank you for the comment.
00:51:56:09 - 00:52:08:13
Mike Collignon: Jacob wanted to know, you know, is it, is it cost prohibitive for production builders to switch to ICF or some kind of version of an insulated concrete panel?
00:52:08:16 - 00:52:32:06
Sam Rashkin: Great question. That's Jacob. And, you know, our it's a, kind of optimized way things would be if the world is perfect would be that the builder actually constructed the homes, but the builders don't construct homes, builders buy the land, and then they outsource all the construction to, the trades, to build a house around the equipment.
00:52:32:06 - 00:53:02:19
Sam Rashkin: They own the workforce. They, you know, be they have their own construction manager on site, of course, but it's it's just a bifurcation unlike any other business. You know, it's, whirlpool makes appliances. They manufacture make them. And so on. And so they invest in equipment, they invest in technology and innovation to do this thing. So if a builder has to use a set panel, the way the industry currently works, I got to successfully convince them to buy a panel.
00:53:02:21 - 00:53:30:01
Sam Rashkin: And then they gotta find a framer who will work with it, and then they got to find a electrician that knows what to do with it. So this is a friction that creates low market penetrations currently for the sets industry. Now the way you fix it, you do it on a stick. You see I can build a better home one third the time with a like three x better consumer experience in terms of durability, protection, future value, peace of mind.
00:53:30:03 - 00:53:50:09
Sam Rashkin: No worrying about having to have termite people come around that I don't have to worry about damage to the home and is so comfortable and it's so healthy and has hard surfaces and are easy to maintain. So I can do all that at lower cost. If I own the production process, I make the product. I'm not bifurcated.
00:53:50:09 - 00:54:27:24
Sam Rashkin: I buy the land, I make the product. I set up a price on the site. And that is the secret where we'll see inroads in, systems. The housing, I believe, is when, companies see this amazing opportunity to just take out so much risk by choosing assemblies like this. I mean, again, the benefit that Onex gets just from just taking all the insurance risk in a market that's starving for low cost insurance providers, if you can get the insurance is like a massive advantage for them.
00:54:27:27 - 00:54:50:04
Sam Rashkin: And it just almost it kind of guarantees them, amazing advantage against every other builder that they don't have to worry about insurance. And so all I'm saying is we're we're not in Kansas anymore. All these new imperatives are acting on us as an industry. We all can choose how we adapt and when we have to have choices we make.
00:54:50:06 - 00:55:17:07
Sam Rashkin: And I'm not telling you to do what I recommend, or I'm not even making any recommendations. I'm sure why certain groups chose certain ways to go and how a builder decided to integrate sits in every aspect of his product development, and can do sits for under $200,000. And it's a it's a stunning, quality home for the buyer. The bigger home might be $300,000, again a massive cost advantage compared to any competing homes I've seen.
00:55:17:09 - 00:55:39:19
Sam Rashkin: So there are ways of doing this. You know, as a builder, by saying I'm going to manage my product from the outset to be integrating these advanced enclosure solutions that manage risk, or I can be a company that says, I'm going to just take the bull by the horns, I'm going to provide a better product and be the developer and the manufacturer and the builder and buy the land.
00:55:39:25 - 00:55:49:22
Sam Rashkin: And so these models, I think, are going to actually come out more and more because I think they're compelling.
00:55:49:25 - 00:56:04:16
Mike Collignon: So I want to stay on the topic of CIPs for just a moment, and then we'll bounce to a couple other topics. Sam, Michael wanted to know, other than performance, can CIPs be environmentally friendly?
00:56:04:19 - 00:56:27:09
Sam Rashkin: Other than well, I well, first of all, I use about 30% less wood than a frame house, so it's resource efficient just from that purpose basis alone. They are incredibly, I think durable and strong. And I think there's a good chance will last longer. So on that basis, they're environmentally friendly because they just don't go into landfill as quickly.
00:56:27:11 - 00:56:52:19
Sam Rashkin: And then again, they use somewhere there's there are currently plug and play super. They're tiny and super thermally bridged. So the expenses on CIP homes, I bet you if you actually compare the modeled consumption to the actual consumption. The modeling overstates the energy use in six homes. I bet you six are just delivering tremendous environmental benefits that just aren't even being counted.
00:56:52:21 - 00:57:20:01
Sam Rashkin: The trouble we have is we have this business model with Sirups again, with the manufacturers have too much friction just trying to sell panels to a builder versus being having set up services and doing other things that make it easier. I believe solutions will come for CIPs. I believe these concrete systems are really exciting. I believe other builders will find ways to just be more productive with the usual systems, and just using penalized conventional framing that they've figured out.
00:57:20:01 - 00:57:38:27
Sam Rashkin: Other, be pretty optimized, but I'm a low risk guy. When I see something as exciting as that. Much risk reduction available. I love building my business model around having so little risk. I can sleep at night like a baby, not worrying about, all those issues.
00:57:38:27 - 00:57:51:08
Mike Collignon: So I've got a couple of detail oriented question on sips. Sam. Craig wanted to know, how do you close the connections between the vertical wall and the sip roof?
00:57:51:11 - 00:58:16:10
Sam Rashkin: The vertical wall and the sip roof? This, the most common way is the SIP wall has a sloped cut on the top so that the panel sits right on it. Flush. And then you can belt suspenders on. Cannot have foam between the two. And you can tape so tight. So, that's a that's that's the most common way they do it as a detail.
00:58:16:15 - 00:58:43:03
Sam Rashkin: What I recommend people do here instead actually, for instance, let's go to the super website Structural Insulated panel Association. And they have amazing resources on SIP details and how panels connect and how they work. And it's better than me. It's an incredible results for just, all the answers to how these this advanced technology assembles and is manufactured and how it works.
00:58:43:05 - 00:58:55:15
Mike Collignon: So, just had a question about foam shrinkage. Is, is foam shrinkage inside the SIP panel still an issue, or is there, maybe a better way to manage it?
00:58:55:17 - 00:59:22:05
Sam Rashkin: It's it's a much bigger issue on continuous insulation because you're just adhering insulation to the outboard sheathing. And, I understand maybe there's less shrinkage than they used to be, but I believe there's still shrinkage in the sub panel. There's this massive like five ton press or whatever it is just and this incredibly strong adhesive bonding the insulation to the skin so it can't shrink.
00:59:22:05 - 00:59:55:20
Sam Rashkin: It is all kind of, like a it's just this massive, glued assembly and there's no way for the insulation shrink. It's just so, glued. So the issue is more to this continuous insulation that's not adhered to anything. It's just it's just being nailed to the sheathing over the water resistant barrier. And, I remember just brick showing his house when he put on those four inch, insulation panels, continuous insulation on his roof and those walls.
00:59:55:23 - 01:00:21:09
Sam Rashkin: Yeah. There's huge black lines starting to appear on the roof and the walls because absolutely continuous insulation. Now, again, I think I understand they're figuring out how to reduce or eliminate the shrinkage, but I think shrinkage is still an issue for continuous inspection. But for SIPs when it's bonded and the super, super strong, adhesive to the panel, there's no place for it to shrink.
01:00:21:09 - 01:00:43:22
Sam Rashkin: And there's as a result, there's no vapor flow possibilities in the assembly. It's just there's no way for vapor to get in and move through it. It's just a it's like a Yeti cooler. You weren't about vapor getting inside. You know, all that ice melting the vapor gets into the Yeti cooler walls. It doesn't happen.
01:00:43:24 - 01:00:48:09
Sam Rashkin: That's the beauty of the of the skin assembly.
01:00:48:12 - 01:01:05:18
Mike Collignon: So, we've got more questions coming in, which is great. We love hearing from everybody. Let's have a question on magnesium oxide sips. What where is the consideration for something like that? And then there's a couple of follow up questions.
01:01:05:20 - 01:01:31:06
Sam Rashkin: Yeah. Mag board is, very interesting option for sets. A lot of different, skins being considered. Besides OSB, you could do plywood, you could do composites, you could do drywall and mag boards. Another option. It's a it's magnesium oxide board. Predominantly I think it's predominantly made in China. So you have that supply chain issue to deal with.
01:01:31:08 - 01:01:58:05
Sam Rashkin: The biggest issue that that Mag board is it's constrained to four by ten panels. So to me that's the biggest issue. Is 1040 is no, you can't make panels like jumbo panels that really make, the assembly of ships elegant because you have, you know, such big, wall panels that make it, really beautifully elegant in terms of, again, creating, like, a Yeti cooler.
01:01:58:07 - 01:02:24:09
Sam Rashkin: So that's a big, challenge with, mag board, but it it has amazing performance in terms of being like a almost an inherent orb because it will shed the water. You almost don't need the house wrap on top of it on the inside. You can also use it almost to, as a replacement for the drywall. You know, it's going to go just spackle the joints and and, go and just finish the mag board on the inside.
01:02:24:09 - 01:02:46:22
Sam Rashkin: So the exciting part about that board is you eliminate the drywall layer on the inside and not be in the outside, and you keep extracting more and more cost savings, more and more layers you don't have to build. Remember how a window is like a perfect assembly. It's there's almost no risk in the window. It's the way it's frenetically sealed.
01:02:46:22 - 01:03:12:23
Sam Rashkin: And then if the assembly goes into the frame, the window itself is a bulk moisture control layer that the paper control layer, the airflow control layer and the thermal flow control layer. So the thermal flow is a minute, admittedly limited to the whether it's 2 or 3, glazing and and and coating and so forth. But it's risk free, you know, it's, it's like plug and play.
01:03:12:23 - 01:03:45:05
Sam Rashkin: You have all my building science package and one, one one glass layer. So to the degree that you could do mag board with six, you're almost doing the same thing. You have your airflow, your thermal flow, your moisture flow and, bulk and bulk master flow with the effect of RB on the outside, plus the taping in the ceiling that have to do, joints.
01:03:45:07 - 01:03:58:15
Sam Rashkin: But again, it's from China. It's from China as main supplier of Mag board. I think there's some local suppliers trying to get in as an option. I don't know. We have to check to see if that's available or not.
01:03:58:17 - 01:04:25:27
Mike Collignon: Yeah. So the follow up questions then is, you know, like you talked about, the sips versus framing. You had that slide in there. Sam. What about the, Tim used the phrase cost risk comparisons. Where were the heavier concrete solutions, require more expensive foundations?
01:04:25:29 - 01:04:59:26
Sam Rashkin: Again, I look at the price point as an example. I'm going. It's the foundations have extra costs. It's not impacting the product to be any more expensive. In fact, it's less expensive than competitive housing being built with traditional framing. So I don't I don't think that the foundations add any significant cost. I think by time you look at all the wind loads and other things that with conventional, same towns in Florida and all they have, you know, they have to be have a hold the house down, hurricanes come through.
01:04:59:29 - 01:05:26:19
Sam Rashkin: I don't know that the foundation cost change much. I think the biggest cost is that they build a, concrete foundation stone wall to get the house up above flood elevation. So that's a cost. They they do because they want to be a resilient builder and protect the homeowners with having that surge or flood risk managed. So I don't think the foundation cost would be a factor at all.
01:05:26:21 - 01:05:30:28
Sam Rashkin: It must not be because you look at how the homes are priced.
01:05:31:00 - 01:05:50:23
Mike Collignon: Yeah, I'll I'll back you up on that one saying when we designed, and I came home over a decade ago, which we did end up building just from disclosure. But when we designed it, the ICF basement and the ICF both great walls just stacked on top of each other. There was no additional, need need of anything.
01:05:50:23 - 01:06:03:22
Mike Collignon: In fact, we could have done a standard, foundation wall that you would have put a wood frame wall on and an ICF on top of it. There was no ramification to the foundation walls whatsoever. Such a good question.
01:06:03:25 - 01:06:08:06
Sam Rashkin: Intuitively, I think concrete's a lot heavier, so I understand the question.
01:06:08:09 - 01:06:30:29
Mike Collignon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now the the big question that comes in when we always talk about concrete, Sam. Oh, we can we can just predict this is happening is, the environmental risk comparisons mean, all the embodied carbon within concrete. So, a lot of people are interested in your thoughts on on that aspect of talking about concrete walls, about the embodied carbon.
01:06:31:02 - 01:07:00:18
Sam Rashkin: Yeah. As you watch the tens of thousands of homes going in from Paradise to landfill or from, or from palisades and from all the cities in California, from damage in the wildfires in LA recently. And you look at the toxic stew that those homes, represent as they're dumped into landfills, as they burn with all the electronics, the carpets, the appliances, the so much nasty stuff you couldn't even.
01:07:00:19 - 01:07:25:04
Sam Rashkin: It's almost like it's a, it's a Superfund site. And so all that stuff's going to landfills because it's being built with a non resilient product. And you telling me to worry about the embodied energy. I don't, and the big reason I don't is because in low carbon concrete has some amazingly, high potential solutions to come to market.
01:07:25:07 - 01:07:51:24
Sam Rashkin: I know research is being done in companies like Onex and others are really making some inroads. And I believe we'll see the low carbon carbon concrete really, be, arriving in the market at reasonable amount of time. But also I look at Europe and I see all the homes that stand there for 400 years, 500 years longer because they're made of stone and masonry and concrete.
01:07:51:26 - 01:08:16:09
Sam Rashkin: I go, oh my goodness, I'm worried about embodied energy. And we're hoping our homes last 50 years or 100 years already built here. Currently, and we can build homes that will last for hundreds of years. And you want me to get really worried about the embodied concrete? I, especially when I know there's a low carbon concrete, fix that's going to be for sure coming to market.
01:08:16:11 - 01:08:48:01
Sam Rashkin: And, and again, really good progress that's already, being made on that. Right. So it's a really good question and it's a really important question, but the answer should be, you got to do full cost accounting and look at all the landfill, landfills that are just being just contaminated with so much waste from homes that are not able to withstand the disaster risks that these other concrete materials, like I said, can tens and tens and tens of thousands of homes every year.
01:08:48:01 - 01:09:14:08
Sam Rashkin: It looks like equivalent going into the with all their toxic materials inside that the burned. So so yeah, I think it's really good to challenge the industry to manage that. That's a great question. I'm glad it came up. I'm telling you, we have an answer around the corner, sir. That will. But so it's a really good question.
01:09:14:10 - 01:09:27:26
Mike Collignon: Question came in from, Gabriel. Curious to hear your thoughts on comparing precast concrete CIPs and light gauge steel prefab.
01:09:27:28 - 01:09:52:28
Sam Rashkin: They're all options that work depending on climate. They depend on, they depend on for prevailing disaster risk. They, they depend on builder preferences. You know, the big advantage of wood, which is not trivial, is how workable it is. Still does love it because it's such a workable product. And you give that up when you go to some of these other systems like Catholic.
01:09:53:00 - 01:10:15:12
Sam Rashkin: And so, I don't believe in telling a builder you should do this or you have to do anything. I believe in providing really good, tools and framework for making the most informed decisions and in the end, if you if it still makes most business sense to do it with a traditional frame house, that's the way you do it.
01:10:15:14 - 01:10:34:05
Sam Rashkin: But I think if you watch the market and see which companies and which builders start to lead the pack, I think they will be the ones innovating from the 150 year old technology that we're currently using.
01:10:34:07 - 01:10:52:08
Mike Collignon: You know, the previous question ask about precast concrete. Thomas wanted to ask about, a product that I know you like a lot, Sam, and has superior walls. Great superior walls. Allows for the integration of utilities within the wall cavities. Can you talk a little bit about the benefit of that? There?
01:10:52:10 - 01:11:13:28
Sam Rashkin: Yeah. I for people don't know and, that's a great question came up because I think Superior Wall actually makes it. I sometimes wonder why Onyx doesn't use a superior wall configuration for them when they currently use. But, but I guess, they've done such great engineering, I, I just differ, but, a superior wall is basically not a sandwich.
01:11:13:28 - 01:11:44:19
Sam Rashkin: It's a single pour of concrete in a rib configuration. So what it means is when you use, superior wall, concrete panels for a foundation, it has 70% less concrete than a normal concrete foundation, stone wall and floor. And the reason is because the rib configuration is much more efficient using concrete where you need it, not just the 12in or 10in that concrete stem wall from sill to footings.
01:11:44:22 - 01:12:07:04
Sam Rashkin: And so the, superior wall is amazing. Send the concrete and you get rid of the stem, the, the the footing because it's like a big bonding just sitting on the gravel. You don't need a footing. And what that also means is your moisture into the slab has a direct path to drain to the drain tile not blocked by their footing.
01:12:07:06 - 01:12:39:24
Sam Rashkin: And, and sometimes the, the details, you have to install a cost, maybe provide a path. So superior walls amazing for foundations. Plus it's 5,000% poured in a plant versus 3000 p.s.i poured in a sealed for concrete foundations, which means it's more waterproof or it's more water, protected, because it's just denser and it's more dimensionally accurate. And it's insulated ten around the entire inside configuration, inside the cavity, around the ribs, all the way around the entire panel.
01:12:39:24 - 01:13:00:03
Sam Rashkin: We have our tent insulation. So you have a foundation while it's insulating and the cavity for more insulation to run it. Plus it's pre-drilled for wiring plumbing in the ribs. So it's an amazing product. And for above grade you can just use the same panel and have all the benefits I talked about with Onyx, with the superior wall, it has impact resistance.
01:13:00:03 - 01:13:22:06
Sam Rashkin: It has passive resistance and termite termites in particular. It has water resistance, flood resistance. You can do all these things with with the superior wall above grade. And so, another really good option. And I was going to talk about that, but I cut my slides down to make sure I run too long. So I'm glad the question came up.
01:13:22:06 - 01:13:25:09
Sam Rashkin: That's a really good question.
01:13:25:11 - 01:13:39:27
Mike Collignon: We had a question from Chet, in regards to the, that worker housing project. Is it possible to build it instead of on a slab to build it with cipp flooring on piers?
01:13:39:29 - 01:14:09:14
Sam Rashkin: Yes. You could, you know, CIPs is such a high value thermal, Barrier. And if I'm doing a crawlspace, I'm just going to do it. And then to crawlspace, and, and if I'm using concrete from my stem walls, I'm just going to insulate them on the inside. I'm going to put the poly down or rat slab over the poly as well.
01:14:09:16 - 01:14:33:09
Sam Rashkin: Make sure the conditioned condition to crawl space, directly with, with the, heating cooling system. And you have a great solution, but it's it's a pretty expensive to have the entire forceps versus just the stem rolls. And that gives me a conditioned space to run ducts to run plumbing, to run that storage. Below in the crawl space.
01:14:33:11 - 01:14:49:28
Sam Rashkin: So, you could do what he's suggesting. But I think I would just do it. I would do a, and vented crawl space is what I would do at much lower cost. And I think a good performance.
01:14:50:00 - 01:15:01:00
Mike Collignon: All right. We had a question come in from Joe. In regards to, you know, the perfect wall, are those feasible in northern climates where you have basements?
01:15:01:03 - 01:15:27:25
Sam Rashkin: Well, I think you're more likely in the northern climate to maybe use something like CIPs versus, let's say, that concrete system in Chicago. But anywhere across from, Florida to the Gulf states to Louisiana and Texas and then across to New Mexico and Arizona and California, I'm going, boy, that's where maybe 70% of the housing is being built.
01:15:27:27 - 01:15:50:05
Sam Rashkin: And that's where, boy, you need resilience. I mean, you need something that's going to, withstand hurricanes, floods, fires, and it's and and termites and all these. I just go, you need to give it a look. You need to give it a look. But up north, where it's really cold, I'm going. I need the most thermal performance I can get for a thickness.
01:15:50:05 - 01:15:57:13
Sam Rashkin: And that's going to be probably more like a sip for me than a concrete assembly.
01:15:57:16 - 01:16:16:11
Mike Collignon: All right. We talked about a lot of different wall systems, but, Jacob wanted to know. I didn't see any information about a CFS panel system. He's seen more of them in his area. And he's curious where he would rank them from all the options that we've been talking about.
01:16:16:13 - 01:16:20:23
Sam Rashkin: Wow. I only got something that stopped me, and I don't know what CFS is. Do you know? Well.
01:16:20:25 - 01:16:34:16
Mike Collignon: I, I looked it up, just to make sure that I could explain it. In case you didn't know. Concealed fastener, striated panels. This is a lock joint type system.
01:16:34:18 - 01:17:04:00
Sam Rashkin: Yeah, but the key thing is, what I what I want to know is basically is what it is. It's a disaster risk profile. What is its workforce risk profile and what's its, building science risk profile? And I'd have to see the assembly and how it's, how it's constructed in the field and so forth. But, you know, there's a lot of different,
01:17:04:03 - 01:17:08:28
Mike Collignon: Hold on. Sam, I I'm I'm just spoke. It's cold form steel. My bed.
01:17:09:00 - 01:17:10:06
Sam Rashkin: Cold form steel.
01:17:10:09 - 01:17:12:29
Mike Collignon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. My fault.
01:17:12:29 - 01:17:38:04
Sam Rashkin: Jacob's still in use. Pipeline. That steel panel, steel channel panels. Yeah. And. Yeah. And that's what. So that's basically just, continuous insulation, steel framing instead of wood framing. So I'm going to guess it is. And so that's fine, you know, but you have to have no thermal bridging and all those details managed. And if you can do that you're you're fine.
01:17:38:07 - 01:17:59:09
Sam Rashkin: And steel is recyclable and it's, termite resistant and water resistant. So that's again there's lots of options for how you can do this. I don't want to make it like, these are the only solutions, these ones I'm most familiar with. So. But yeah, but a frame panel can be still a work, so doesn't it? Could be the one.
01:17:59:12 - 01:18:27:13
Mike Collignon: Yeah. No, he tripped us up on the acronym, but, once, once we got that cleared up, we're we're good to go. So final question here, Sam came in from John. He want to know, if you or I know of any company like superior, that might be doing prefab multifamily units that can be stacked for mid-rise or high rise construction.
01:18:27:16 - 01:19:03:07
Sam Rashkin: You know, mostly in stacked units. I see people opting for modular. That's where modular has, like, you know, there's all these tools out there that have different strengths and weaknesses and, risk profiles. But modular is pretty exciting for multifamily. You know, it's just, just drop it in. Although my good friend Aaron Smith, he did a multifamily with CIPs that came out really well, Prairie Crossing, I believe, was named a project in, south west Minnesota.
01:19:03:09 - 01:19:29:17
Sam Rashkin: But, you know, it's, you just have to do the math. You have to run all the considerations. You have to come up with a preference so that you go into the design process and optimize the product for the systems that you're choosing, including the enclosure.
01:19:29:20 - 01:19:43:18
Sam Rashkin: But you're going to find nine, nine times out of ten, you're going to find most people in the multifamily space are looking for modular. And so many advantages.
01:19:43:20 - 01:20:19:16
Mike Collignon: You know, I was I was trying to rack my brain a little bit, because, I started my career in the concrete industry. And so I knew of a couple of precast manufacturers who were doing, precast single family homes, one company was called Royal. I can remember there were royal concrete products or Royal Building products, but they were out of Florida and they were doing, precast concrete homes that you would be able to drive down the road or put on a train.
01:20:19:18 - 01:20:59:01
Mike Collignon: And it included putting even like cabinetry inside and windows and doors and, you know, kind of a, modular manufacturer type situation. Well, I don't know if they're still around or not. And then the other one was a company out of, Chicago area Naperville called Duquesne Precast. And they were doing single family homes as well, but they'd actually gotten their start with, if you've ever driven into Chicago, especially from the south part of the city, you just see warehouse after warehouse after warehouse, that was them.
01:20:59:03 - 01:21:23:22
Mike Collignon: Largely. And so they had all this experience building precast walls for warehouses. They decided to go into the housing industry, and they had an automated system in their plant where it would just be put in the CAD drawing, and the thing just rolled around the plant and poured the walls. And, it was very precise. I don't recall whether they got into what I would consider to be mid-rise or high rise.
01:21:23:22 - 01:21:34:07
Mike Collignon: They might have gotten into like three storey, like three flats, like you might see in Chicago, but that might have been about as tall as they would have gotten. So those are my.
01:21:34:08 - 01:22:00:10
Sam Rashkin: Job more than I. You got more than I got. But, you know, audible, based in Idaho, is doing wood framed panels for, multifamily targeting a lot of California markets mostly. Is there, how they're doing their business and their robotic product, the robotic. And you have an advanced, assembly section around the robotics. So they're real advanced.
01:22:00:10 - 01:22:34:14
Sam Rashkin: I mean, everyone's making different investments. And, this is what, you know, it's scary business. You know, you're you want to bet on the horse. That's that's that's going to come through at the end. And so I always admire people who try new the new innovations and take on so much risk. But, I kind of, I know the basics, which are you gotta you gotta have the product design from the start to optimize a certain system.
01:22:34:16 - 01:22:55:26
Sam Rashkin: Gotta pick a system based on all of its true cost factors and related factors and things that keep you up at night. And, there are a lot of good, reliable systems out there. So the key thing to do is to I said, do the math and compare the systems. But we got to start building faster, better, cheaper.
01:22:56:03 - 01:23:00:05
Sam Rashkin: So that's kind of a good way to wrap up today.
01:23:00:08 - 01:23:28:03
Mike Collignon: Yep. Yep. That concludes today's webinar. I really want to thank everyone for attending and asking all the wonderful questions that we got to, because we do really get every question that we can, also thank you to Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions for their generous sponsorship. We're very appreciative of them. Now, the next housing 2.0 webinar is going to take place six weeks from today.
01:23:28:03 - 01:23:46:17
Mike Collignon: That's June 26th. Our topic is going to be managing high performance certification uncertainty. And that will start at the same time as we did today, which is 2 p.m. eastern time. So until next time, stay safe. Stay healthy. Take care everyone. Have a great Memorial Day and we'll see you all in June. Take care.