The Impact Series: Kelly Kopp

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Mike Collignon: Hello and welcome to the impact series on the Green Builder Media Network. I'm your host, Mike Collignon. On this podcast, I'll have one on one conversations with leaders and innovators from a wide variety of disciplines. We'll talk about how they got into their field, the lessons they've learned, and advice they have for future generations of leaders. Today I'll be speaking with Kelly Cope.

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Mike Collignon: She has been a professor of plants, soil and climate at Utah State University since 2001. She recently authored a report that examines how to balance water conservation with the benefits of green spaces, with a focus on urban areas. Kelly, welcome to the impact series.

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Kelly Kopp: Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me.

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Mike Collignon: I wanted to kind of get into, first of all, your your educational background. You have an undergraduate degree in natural resource conservation and soil science. You have a master's in hydrology and you have a doctorate in agronomy and turfgrass science. So it seems to me like you knew exactly what you wanted to do with your career at the early age.

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Kelly Kopp: Oh, that is hilarious. That is hilarious. No. The answer is, in fact, no, I did not. I think I have been looking back now, I can say I've been incredibly fortunate in what at the time seem to be very random choices and decisions in my education. But in the end, I think looking back, that they all tied together nicely and I was able to join this department that I've been in now for 25 years of plant soils and climate, which kind of brought all of those things together in a, in a really positive way.

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Kelly Kopp: And by the way, this department at the time when I was looking for work, was the only department of its sort in the country that at least that I knew about. And so I just couldn't believe there was a department that brought all of the things together that were a part of my education background. It was like, what?

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Kelly Kopp: This is amazing. So I've been here ever since.

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Mike Collignon: Well, I was going to say you started your undergraduate at Texas A\&M, and then you go east to the University of Connecticut, but then you head back west to Utah.

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Mike Collignon: So so is it. Is it because of the specific.

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Mike Collignon: Department that they had that fit your background?

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Kelly Kopp: Well, a little bit of history on that, I guess. Personal history. So I grew up in Texas, which is why I landed at Texas A\&M and worked on natural resource conservation there and soil science. But then also, you know, I'd spent my whole life in Texas and my parents were, in fact, from New England. They had they had grown up in New York.

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Kelly Kopp: And so I thought it might be a good idea to just experience a different part of the country. I mean, I don't know if you've spent much time in Texas, but Texas is it is a unique place. It is very it they look inward quite a bit. Texas is all about Texas is all about Texas, which is fine.

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Kelly Kopp: But I was looking for some other things. And so that's why I went to the University of Connecticut. I was just sort of cold calling, you know, professors and saying, hey, I want to go to graduate school. What do you think? Then the one who replied to me with the best offer was in Connecticut. So that's where I went.

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Kelly Kopp: But then I did live in New England for almost ten years, and it was a really different place, and I liked it. I liked the fact that there was a lot of water there. It was very green, unlike where I grew up, which was much drier. And so I was, you know, always water is always been kind of in the background for me.

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Kelly Kopp: But in Connecticut it was more about water quality and, and challenges related to water quality as opposed to water quantity, which is what I had grown up with that challenge. But when I was finishing up my degree, I had a friend who had already come out here for a job. She, she and I had gone to graduate school together in Connecticut, and she said, there's this position opening up.

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Kelly Kopp: I think you'd be perfect for it. And I had been to Utah once before that. And Utah is a stunningly beautiful state. It is it just the one time I had been here, I said to myself, literally, if I can ever live here, I will do it. And so that was the first and only job I applied for when I was finished with my PhD.

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Kelly Kopp: And I've been here ever since.

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Mike Collignon: Wow. Yeah. I was going to say you have spent your entire career at Utah State. What was the what was the first class that you taught there?

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Kelly Kopp: Irrigation design actually. Yeah. So I this was a class we didn't have actually at the university. And students in my department as well as landscape architecture needed a basic irrigation design course. And so they also needed a course that was quantitative. We call it a quantitative course here, meaning that it has a decent amount of math. So our students have to have some of those courses, they have to have quantitative, qualitative, etc..

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Kelly Kopp: And so our students needed that quantitative credit. The landscape architecture students needed it. So I offered to develop it. And it's it was challenging but also incredibly helpful for students, you know, both in our program and landscape architecture. And it really integrated irrigation design into my head, that's for sure. But it's all, you know, it's about the hydraulics and how you lay things out and all of those things.

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Kelly Kopp: Water pressure. I mean, if landscape architectures and designers don't have a handle on that stuff, they can't design efficiently, right? So it was very much focused on efficient irrigation design for the purposes of water conservation.

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Mike Collignon: Okay. And at that point, I don't think the quail program existed yet, did it?

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Kelly Kopp: No no no no, that came much later. So that qualified water efficient landscaper program that came later and that came out of California and has become. I guess it's national, but but it's really heavily focused on the southwestern part of the country. But that certification program, we certainly provide it here in Utah, but it's provided all over the West, and it helps landscape contractors learn more about water efficient irrigation practices and how you determine irrigation schedules and what considerations can be made, how you test irrigation systems.

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Kelly Kopp: But that's been another really fun thing to be involved with. And we've trained hundreds of folks at this point in the state of Utah, which isn't to say we're slowing down at all. I think we need that type of program more than we ever have, especially considering the drought situation we are currently in.

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Mike Collignon: And we're going to get to that in a minute, believe me.

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Kelly Kopp: Yeah, yeah, I'm in the room.

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Mike Collignon: I'm curious as to, you know, you start out teaching irrigation design. What are you teaching now?

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Kelly Kopp: Well, I am not actually teaching in the classroom on campus any longer. I gave that up in 2018 when I went on sabbatical. I was out of the country for a year, and so I. I gave that to a colleague who's been teaching it ever since. And my position here at USC is actually meant to be more public facing.

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Kelly Kopp: So I do a lot of research here, but then I'm out. I have a statewide responsibility. So I'm working with state agencies, cities all the way down to individual citizens who need any support in my area of expertise. So when I was teaching, I was kind of doing that out of the goodness of my own heart, I'll put it that way.

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Kelly Kopp: But later on, you know, it was it was always hard to integrate that into all my other tasks and duties. And so now I'm sort of shifted my focus again, back to my public outward facing work and teaching. So I still do a ton of teaching. It's just not students on campus teaching. So.

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Mike Collignon: Right. And you're doing that work through the extensions, right?

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Kelly Kopp: Correct. Yeah. So I'm a professor, but I'm also what's called an extension specialist. So land grant universities like Utah State have extension systems. And we have specialists in certain topic areas like I'm the water conservation and turfgrass specialist. But we've got specialists across a wide range of disciplines. And that's our role. We really support everyone in the state in our various areas of expertise, and it's an incredible system.

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Kelly Kopp: I think hopefully your, your viewers slash listeners learn at least that much about what they have available to them in terms of resources, because it's available in every state in the United States and every county. So whatever support someone might need, they can call those offices and get some help on literally any topic.

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Mike Collignon: No, they are fantastic. I've used them here in Illinois. And I echo your statement that the second that anybody can utilize those services, they are incredibly helpful. I reach out to them about a tree situation and they were very helpful in that regard. So yes, I would definitely encourage anybody listening or watching this to to check out your extension services in your state.

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Mike Collignon: Yeah.

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Mike Collignon: When you were in the classroom, 2001 to 2018. How did your curriculum have to change over the years? Do you have to make adjustments?

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Kelly Kopp: Absolutely, absolutely. And for really positive reasons in my mind. So when I started teaching that class, we did not have nearly the types and numbers of irrigation technologies that we have available to us now. And so over the course of teaching, it was like, all right, you know, maybe we had standard irrigation controllers and standard sprinklers and nozzles.

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Kelly Kopp: But then we started to have smart irrigation controllers come into the picture, and different types of sprinkler nozzles that were more efficient. And even things like pressure regulating sprinkler heads, which pressure is the number one issue in irrigation? It's something that needs to be correct. If it's not, you can underwater, you can overwater, you can waste water. So it's incredibly important.

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Kelly Kopp: And so all of these technologies started coming into the picture. And what that the the basic design aspects don't change. But the fact that you can integrate these new technologies and make your systems that much more efficient, that changed a lot. I mean, I feel like we went in some sense, we went kind of from the dark ages to the light with all that stuff.

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Kelly Kopp: I mean, maybe I'm being a little dramatic, but, I mean, so I started doing research in combination, like I'm teaching the class, right? But in the field, I'm doing research with some of this stuff, like smart irrigation controllers, for example. And the water savings potential is just incredible. I mean, we were demonstrating 50% and more reductions in water applications by using smart irrigation controllers, not changing a thing in the landscape, just using those smart controllers which integrate local weather data.

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Kelly Kopp: Right. So not only was it saving water, but it's more healthy for the plants as well because it's irrigating according to what's happening there in their local weather system. So that's something that's been great, is to be able to do research that complements things in the classroom and outside the classroom as well.

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Mike Collignon: And I wanted to get into the nuance of smart meter for just a moment, if I can. So you're talking about smart meters that are that are relying on local weather data, as opposed to some of those smart meters that rely on like either moisture levels in the soil or recent rainfall or like it's it's tying into weather data via Wi-Fi.

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Kelly Kopp: Some of them, yes, but some of them actually have sensors co-located on site. Okay. And some of them, I mean, it just really depends on the specific controller, but they get that information in different ways. I will say that the trend is more towards Wi-Fi. As you mentioned before, it's like the internet of things, right? I mean, like I can control my own home irrigation with my phone literally from anywhere in the world as long as I've got internet access.

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Kelly Kopp: It's remarkable. And it's getting that local weather information and integrating that. But it is somewhat different from soil moisture sensor based control that you just mentioned. Those are installed on site. They're connected directly to the controller. And that's how they schedule irrigation, very, very water conserving devices, by the way, big fan of those as well. But yeah, most of the other smart controllers are using Wi-Fi information to schedule irrigation.

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Kelly Kopp: It coupled with the app on a phone. Yeah.

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Mike Collignon: And then for those who aren't familiar with some of these smarter irrigation technologies, what's the power source then for those for those sensors? Are they are they in the soil? Are they in the home? Where are they located and what's their power source?

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Kelly Kopp: Well, so a soil moisture sensor would be directly connected to an irrigation controller, which is where it would be getting its power. And irrigation controllers are typically hardwired into the home in some way, but they've also got battery backup. And so those could be located really anywhere on a property. I, I have been running an irrigation evaluation program here in Utah for 20 years at this point, and I've seen irrigation controllers in some very weird places.

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Kelly Kopp: But, you know, typically a garage is the most common place that you might find one. So yeah.

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Mike Collignon: But it's not like people are going to run around their yard and swap out batteries and in their sprinkler heads and.

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Kelly Kopp: No, no, no, no, no. And then to, you know, I'll give it a little shout out to the state of Utah. So for several years now, they've been providing rebates to any citizen in the state who wants to purchase one of these controllers. You can get a rebate, which essentially covers the cost. And I don't know of any other state that's doing that right now, but it's I think it's a phenomenal program, and it's the state kind of putting their money where their mouth is on some of these things, which I appreciate.

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Mike Collignon: Yeah. And I was trying to underscore to Kelly that like it's it's not that hard to utilize this technology that saves so much water. It's not really that much of a pain to operate or to install.

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Kelly Kopp: No, no it's not. I will say though, that one challenge I think some folks have, depending on what kind of life experience they've had, they do need to be programed correctly and well to operate as efficiently as possible. And sometimes that can be a little bit trickier depending on the controller. So you know, you mentioned the Kewell program.

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Kelly Kopp: One thing we're looking at is also certifying these folks in in programing those controllers. So that might be another service they can add to their list of services is hey, we can help you program your smart controller as best as possible so that you're saving as much water as possible.

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Mike Collignon: Right. And I think another shout out to the Irrigation Association. Oh yeah. They're also a helpful resource for people as well. Right.

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Kelly Kopp: Absolutely, absolutely. So that is a nonprofit. But it's comprised of irrigation professionals across the spectrum. But they provide so many fantastic trainings. For example, you can get official certifications through the Irrigation Association. Plus they are just great industry advocates. And it's a great place to find out. You know, they've got a huge show every winter, and it's a great place to find out about these new technologies that are coming along.

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Kelly Kopp: But yeah, they're a fantastic resource. In fact, in fact, when I was putting my course together, it was largely built on the back of some of their training programs. Right? Because to me, that's that's the gold standard out there.

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Mike Collignon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good group too. So let's talk about this new study that you have out. Now tell us a little bit about what it covers. But also when did your research first start on this.

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Kelly Kopp: So you're talking about the carbon sequestration in turfgrass systems.

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Mike Collignon: Yes.

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Kelly Kopp: Sorry okay. So I started doing research in this area into any 22 2022. I got some funding to install a long term research project here in Logan, Utah, where my research farm is, and that study, the carbon part of it is, is just one part of it. It's really a life cycle analysis study of different types of landscapes.

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Kelly Kopp: So looking at everything from cradle to grave so to speak. So purchasing the material, transporting the material to the site, planting the material. What does it all cost. How much gas did it take to get there. You know, as comprehensive as we can possibly be, of course, with an eye on water, right? I mean, that's the first thought that comes to mind.

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Kelly Kopp: But you know, something I've, I've observed over time in my role is as we've tried to address our water challenges, there's been a lot of emphasis on landscape transformation. There's been a lot of emphasis on turfgrass removal, but I've also seen some really harshly negative consequences as a result of some of those programs. And so that kind of got me thinking about what is it that we get from landscapes in our environment, because it's not just a pretty thing to look at, not at all.

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Kelly Kopp: In fact, I think about landscapes as ecosystems that provide a lot of functionality to us. And not just that they look good, but and not just that they're producing oxygen, but they are helping to cool our urban environments, which is an increasing issue. They are helping to reduce stormwater flow by keeping water on site and allowing that water to soak into the landscape.

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Kelly Kopp: So many other benefits that we get. And so my thinking, my very simple thought was we don't I don't think we should be ripping plants out. I think what we need are more plants, not less plants. Now, those plants can be any number of different things. But the trend that I saw moving toward rock mulch and heat and runoff, frankly, and soil erosion, that was not where I thought we should be heading.

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Kelly Kopp: That is a way to lose a lot of benefits that we get from the landscapes around us. And so this research was about quantifying those benefits that we get from different types of landscapes. So in this project that I'm telling you about, some of the landscapes have turfgrass, some of them don't, some of them have different types of turfgrass.

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Kelly Kopp: And so we're really trying to quantify those benefits. And we've got a model that actually does quantify those benefits so that someone can make a comparison. Like if I make these choices about a landscape over the next 30 years, it's going to take this much water, it's going to cost me this many dollars, it's going to sequester this much carbon, etc., etc. if I make this other choice, all those things will be different.

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Kelly Kopp: And so if I can make that comparison, looking at all the various aspects, I make a better choice. So it's very much about helping folks make the best choice they can for their own personal, their own personal desires, but also for the environment. Right. So that's what the project is really about, is helping folks make those decisions. And of course, water is huge, but cooling is also huge and so is carbon sequestration and a lot of other things.

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Kelly Kopp: So it's it's I wish it were really simple. And I wish at the end of our model it said, this one gets an A+. It doesn't it doesn't work like that. It's it's much more it's useful information to make your individual decision. But there's nothing about it to say that this one is absolutely the best or this one is absolutely the worst.

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Kelly Kopp: It's so situationally dependent, right? But it does give information that I think helps make helps folks make those decisions. Yeah. So it's going to be ten years at least with this project okay.

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Mike Collignon: And you know, I think habitat for wildlife would be another benefit to because as.

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Kelly Kopp: We pollinators.

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Mike Collignon: Pave more you're getting to the urban heat island effect right. So you pay for the temperature goes up. But now you've got some vegetation to help try and mitigate some of that.

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Mike Collignon: But as you pay more, you also lose habitat for wildlife. So in this report, are you looking at both residential and commercial landscape.

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Kelly Kopp: So yeah. So the report it's it's it's really summarizing the existing body of research that we have about turfgrass carbon sequestration. And we do have a sort of healthy amount of research on it so far. But I'm conducting more because I think it's going to, you know, more information is going to make those choices better. It's going to make the information more accurate.

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Kelly Kopp: And so in this report, what I did was summarize sort of the existing research. But it's some it's a huge part of what I'm doing now with this project. I mean that's why it's ten years long. In order to get carbon information from plots like this, it has to be a very long term study. And I'm just really, really fortunate that I have got space to do that.

00:22:19:29 - 00:22:41:16
Kelly Kopp: Nobody's going to be kicking me out of that area anytime soon, because typically those types of research projects only go on for two years, which is great for certain kinds of information, but it's not great for carbon. And it's also, by the way, not great for the the atmospheric cooling aspect of the study, because I've got trees on my plots, which are not very big right now.

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Mike Collignon: But they're.

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Kelly Kopp: They're going to be getting bigger, right. And providing shade. So things are going to change. So that'll be the other really interesting thing to look at how things change as these landscapes mature.

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Mike Collignon: And as those trees get bigger, they are able to absorb more carbon. Yes, I know they do hit a peak at a certain age, but they will absorb more carbon ten years from now than they will now. And so. That's part of your study, right?

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Mike Collignon: Right.

00:23:07:19 - 00:23:22:08
Mike Collignon: You know, and you talk about the length of research projects. I had Doctor James White on here, who he's done now at University of North Carolina. And we talked about, you know, research funding, a lot of it evaporating, a lot of it going away.

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Mike Collignon: Yeah.

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Mike Collignon: And so the fact that you got a ten year research project is phenomenal and probably somewhat rare these days. Now.

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Kelly Kopp: Yes. But to be clear, the majority of funding that I got, I used in the front end of this.

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Mike Collignon: Nice.

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Kelly Kopp: I got because I had to buy all the material and get it installed, irrigation controllers, et cetera, etc. but the nice thing about it is that I can continue this work at a pretty low cost for the next ten years. The biggest investment was certainly on the front end, and I'm very fortunate in my position here at USC.

00:24:02:11 - 00:24:32:24
Kelly Kopp: We have a certain amount of ongoing funding from our state legislature that I can use to do not. It's not a huge amount of money, but I can use that to keep a study like this going once I've gotten past that initial investment. But yes, I mean, your point is well taken. The funding landscape is very different than what it used to be, and things have been to say, uncertain is putting it quite mildly.

00:24:32:26 - 00:24:50:26
Kelly Kopp: We just started trying to see what happens. I mean, higher ed is changing quite a bit across the country, but I think, you know, we're all still trying to do the right thing and, and produce useful information for the public. So that's certainly our goal too.

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Mike Collignon: Yeah, yeah.

00:24:51:28 - 00:25:18:03
Mike Collignon: And I, in regards to the study, I want to get into a nuanced question with you. You talked about a lot of cost being upfront in landscapes. You typically do a lot of establishment work, right. You're establishing the roots, you're establishing those plants. And then after that, if they're native to the area, how much irrigation is needed after that?

00:25:18:06 - 00:25:47:03
Kelly Kopp: It totally depends on the plant material. And the other thing I mean, I mentioned the drought. We are seeing a year like we've never seen, so we didn't. It's people are jokingly calling it the winter. That wasn't because we got we had almost no snow. We got incredibly warm, March was incredibly warm, so we had what little snow we did have, kind of melted and ran off early or was absorbed into the soil.

00:25:47:06 - 00:26:07:26
Kelly Kopp: And so yes, we might typically look at establishment levels of watering and then what we might call maintenance levels of watering subsequent to that. But all bets are off this year for sure. I mean, things are just so weird and crazy. So we had a very warm march, but then we've had a little bit of snow in April.

00:26:07:26 - 00:26:11:28
Kelly Kopp: We had a hard freeze that killed a lot of the fruit orchards in the state.

00:26:11:29 - 00:26:12:27
Mike Collignon: Oh.

00:26:12:29 - 00:26:33:18
Kelly Kopp: It's just really different and it's hard to say how that's going to affect things longer term. But what I can tell folks and what I am telling them is that turf grasses are a great place to reduce your outdoor water use. They're incredibly resilient and tough. They will come back. I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about the trees.

00:26:33:18 - 00:26:53:04
Kelly Kopp: I'm worried about perennials. I'm worried about the stuff that's that's more expensive, more valuable and takes longer to establish. So we're really focusing on those plant materials. We are already having irrigation restrictions and the irrigation season hasn't started. So it's it's going to be a wild ride this summer for sure.

00:26:53:09 - 00:26:53:15
Mike Collignon: Yeah.

00:26:53:17 - 00:26:54:16
Kelly Kopp: Yeah.

00:26:54:18 - 00:27:03:06
Mike Collignon: I'd love to hear your opinion on the following term. Nonfunctional turfgrass.

00:27:03:08 - 00:27:08:25
Kelly Kopp: All right. Here's my opinion. There's no such thing. There's no such thing.

00:27:08:26 - 00:27:10:12
Mike Collignon: Okay. Because for for.

00:27:10:16 - 00:27:39:00
Mike Collignon: Our listeners or watchers who who may not be familiar, there have been some legislation passed in various states or counties or cities that are basically saying you can no longer have nonfunctional turfgrass, and that should be replaced with something else. So let's talk a little bit about, okay, what are they defining as nonfunctional turfgrass. And then Kelly why do you disagree with that assessment.

00:27:39:00 - 00:27:57:03
Mike Collignon: Because because I think it's important in the in the overall dialog. To to understand not just what it is, but maybe why are we going in the wrong direction when it comes to nonfunctional turfgrass bans or modifications?

00:27:57:06 - 00:28:22:11
Kelly Kopp: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Mike, I have a few things to say on this topic. So in the water world, nonfunctional turf, they would tell you that it is turf that never gets any traffic except perhaps for when it's mode. Okay. No play, no pets, no picnics, nothing like that. Right. So that's how that's the broad definition of nonfunctional turf.

00:28:22:12 - 00:28:48:09
Kelly Kopp: The reason I say all turf is functional is because all turfgrass produces oxygen. It prevents stormwater runoff. It stabilizes the soil. It sequesters carbon. I mean, in the water world of frustration of mine is that when conversation turns to turfgrass, it's like this thing that came from space, that it's not even a plant, that it's this, this. I don't know what this evil alien thing.

00:28:48:09 - 00:29:12:18
Kelly Kopp: I'm not sure, but it's not right. It performs all of those functions. Urban cooling. I mean, it is a huge component of cooling our urban environment. So this idea that there is nonfunctional turf to me is just sort of ludicrous. Now, having said that, the reason that the water world latched on to that as an approach to water conservation is that it's simple.

00:29:12:24 - 00:29:36:04
Kelly Kopp: That is it. It is a simple thing to be able to tell people. Oh, just rip this stuff out and you'll be good. But the problem is, it is not that simple. And there are plenty of places in this state, in this country, I should say California among them. I've had colleagues in Texas tell me the same thing where turf removal programs have not resulted in significant water savings.

00:29:36:05 - 00:30:01:29
Kelly Kopp: And worse than that, in Las Vegas, I have witnessed the death of their urban forest canopy because of turf removal programs that are ill considered, poorly done, and not taking into consideration the damage that will occur to the trees that are growing over that turf. So just a lot of really negative unintended consequences. And the other thing I will say about it is this.

00:30:02:03 - 00:30:31:06
Kelly Kopp: I am 1,000% about reducing outdoor water use. I direct a center for water efficient landscaping here at Utah State. I've been working on this for 25 years. It is important to me, so I don't want anybody to mistake that. However, we have programs that have demonstrated actual water savings that don't require ripping out turf and result in more water savings than some of those programs that have been in place for decades at this point.

00:30:31:06 - 00:30:49:06
Kelly Kopp: So, you know, it's just obviously I probably am on my soapbox here, but it's a little bit of frustration on my part. It's like we didn't have to go from zero to rip it out. What we needed to go was to step one, which is irrigate what you have correctly. Shouldn't that be step one?

00:30:49:08 - 00:30:50:14
Mike Collignon: Right. And that's I.

00:30:50:14 - 00:30:51:27
Mike Collignon: Think I think that.

00:30:51:27 - 00:31:15:22
Mike Collignon: Probably is where some of this is rooted is I think about a median, okay. You know, a grassy strip of land that has a curb all around it. People drive past on either side, but yet it gets watered. But what do we usually see? Right to your point about irrigation design, usually it's the pavements all wet.

00:31:16:00 - 00:31:16:13
Mike Collignon: Oh yeah.

00:31:16:16 - 00:31:23:16
Mike Collignon: The grass got wet too. But you're you're watering the pavement. And the joke I make to my children all the time is I'm just waiting for that pavement to grow and.

00:31:23:16 - 00:31:27:14
Mike Collignon: It's growing. Yet I don't know what's happening here. Yeah, I think that.

00:31:27:14 - 00:31:39:23
Mike Collignon: May be where some of the, some of the, the negativity is coming from. Is that water or waste when it comes to irrigation. But doesn't that boil down to poor irrigation design.

00:31:39:25 - 00:32:02:19
Kelly Kopp: Yes, yes it does Mike. So that's that's the thing. It's like okay. Is is it the turfgrass fault that somebody planted it in a street median like that. No, no. So my argument would to that would be that was a poor plant choice from the get go. Some something like that should never have been in turfgrass. And neither should narrow park strips or hard to irrigate areas.

00:32:02:19 - 00:32:27:12
Kelly Kopp: That is not where it should be used. But that's a different question, right? That's a that's a different choice. And yes, I agree with you. A lot of that has to do with how the irrigation is set up. So you know, I'm but but because of that kind of poor design and poor plant choice situation, yes, I think people could rightfully say that it's been used poorly, inefficiently, ineffectively, inappropriately.

00:32:27:13 - 00:32:50:04
Kelly Kopp: I get that. However, again, it's not the turfgrass that made the choice to be planted there, right? And it's also not the turfgrass that designed the irrigation system that's spraying all over the street. So, you know, we just need to think about what exactly is happening here. And really it all boils down to human choices and decisions, and we can make better ones, no question.

00:32:50:04 - 00:32:58:07
Kelly Kopp: But ripping all of the turf out at the expense of our quality of environment and life is not the correct choice in my opinion.

00:32:58:09 - 00:32:58:29
Mike Collignon: Yeah.

00:32:59:01 - 00:33:02:02
Mike Collignon: Unless the turfgrass truly is an alien that has landed there and.

00:33:02:02 - 00:33:02:16
Mike Collignon: Then.

00:33:02:18 - 00:33:03:22
Kelly Kopp: Indeed then let's get rid.

00:33:03:23 - 00:33:08:20
Mike Collignon: Of it. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Well, you know.

00:33:08:23 - 00:33:38:06
Mike Collignon: This all kind of to me, this all kind of funnels towards something that we should see this year. I don't know if it will happen before the end of the year or not. And that is the looming Colorado River compact conclusion of those negotiations. And so if people thought that Kelly was on her soapbox now, just wait, because stay tuned.

00:33:38:07 - 00:34:03:26
Mike Collignon: Here comes another one. And that is going to be not just the the Colorado River compact negotiations, but how the the western third of the United States is going to have to adjust to how we build, operate, farm, live. And and then we can even talk about data centers after that.

00:34:03:26 - 00:34:07:21
Mike Collignon: But oh, boy. But but I mean.

00:34:07:23 - 00:34:15:29
Mike Collignon: When you're talking about a region of the country that is going to have to somehow reduce their usage.

00:34:16:01 - 00:34:16:21
Mike Collignon: Yeah.

00:34:16:27 - 00:34:27:03
Mike Collignon: We don't know what yet how that's going to shake out, but we pretty much know that every state is going to have to reduce their usage someway, somehow, in order to meet the obligations of the Colorado River.

00:34:27:06 - 00:34:28:11
Kelly Kopp: Yes.

00:34:28:13 - 00:34:58:10
Mike Collignon: We look, we're going to be looking everywhere, right? We're going to be looking at your we're going to be looking at water reuse. We're going to be looking at all sectors of I'll say I'll jokingly say zoning, but I mean everything from residential to commercial to to agriculture to industrial. So I mean, what do you foresee coming down the road as how we tackle this enormous challenge that is not just a Utah problem.

00:34:58:10 - 00:35:03:05
Mike Collignon: It's it's a whole, you know, region's problem.

00:35:03:07 - 00:35:26:29
Kelly Kopp: Yeah. Well, I will say that I do think we have a role to play with landscape irrigation. No question. In the state of Utah, 10 to 11% of our state's water use goes toward municipal, the municipal and industrial sector. So you might equate that roughly to what's happening with outdoor irrigation, at least in part. And so I do think we have a role to play.

00:35:26:29 - 00:35:50:29
Kelly Kopp: Absolutely. But we've already on this podcast talked about 2 or 3 different technologies that could help us reduce outdoor water use by about 50%. So 50% is a lot more than the not really anything that's happening in California. Right? So we have a role to play and we should play it. And, you know, our center is very much about helping Utahns do that.

00:35:51:00 - 00:36:13:25
Kelly Kopp: And also we've got a huge effort to reduce agricultural water use in this state. And so I guess my point is just that it's all hands on deck, no question. With the Colorado River issues. And we all must reduce our water use. And I put myself squarely in that camp as well. I've been replacing toilets. I've transitioned. I took all the turf out of my front yard, by the way.

00:36:14:03 - 00:36:32:26
Kelly Kopp: Shocking what I did. Yes, I did, and I transitioned the turf I still have in my backyard to low water use turf, because I am absolutely going to do the best I can to help this state and this region save water. We all need to be doing that, but we need to be doing it in ways that actually work.

00:36:32:29 - 00:36:50:02
Kelly Kopp: I, I it's kind of mean, but I'll put it this way. Do you want to actually save water, or do you just want to say that you're trying to save water? Because I actually want to save water. And so I am about programs that help people do that for sure.

00:36:50:04 - 00:36:51:06
Mike Collignon: And so yeah.

00:36:51:08 - 00:37:16:08
Mike Collignon: How does that I mean, how do you feel then when you, when you read articles like I read the other day about, you know, oh, we're going to put a data center in Utah, it's going to be enormous. And somehow it's going to utilize almost double the amount of power that this entire state produces currently. And as you and I both know, energy and water are connected.

00:37:16:12 - 00:37:28:24
Mike Collignon: So you're going to, you know, increase this power production, which means there's a water component to that. I mean, how does that even how does the logic even work there?

00:37:28:27 - 00:37:58:10
Kelly Kopp: That's an excellent question, Mike. I think a lot of folks in Utah are asking that question right now. Maybe for folks on the podcast that aren't aware, there is the largest data center in the country being proposed for a location in northern Utah, which is very close to the Great Salt Lake, and for also for folks who may not know, the Great Salt Lake is really in peril right now because of excessive withdrawals as well as climate change that is warming us up.

00:37:58:10 - 00:38:23:26
Kelly Kopp: There's more evaporation, there's there's less precipitation. I mean, there's just sort of this perfect storm of problems happening for that lake and this particular data center. And it's not the only one, by the way, being proposed in the state, but this particular one, as you say, massive, massive, massive, massive, it seems to be being pushed through very quickly, which for me is automatically suspect, I think.

00:38:23:28 - 00:38:43:03
Kelly Kopp: Why? Why the huge rush? I mean, can we at least take a few months and figure out what the impacts are going to be, both in terms of energy and water when it's right? Oh, and I didn't even mention the fact that they're going to locate it in one of the the the most important ecological systems in the country in terms of, of migratory birds.

00:38:43:05 - 00:39:05:10
Kelly Kopp: So they're talking about this massive facility which will be lit up like nobody's business. Right. And if you know anything about birds, that light pollution is a real problem. So there's just so many things that people just want more information. People want more information about what's what are the real resource costs of something like that going to be?

00:39:05:10 - 00:39:23:22
Kelly Kopp: And not just that one, but all the other ones that are being proposed in the state as well. But Utah is very much what did you say? The governor said, oh, we're open for business, right? That's what he likes to say. And it's true. I mean, we are an incredibly fast growing state, good quality of life, lots of people moving here.

00:39:23:22 - 00:39:54:20
Kelly Kopp: But our resources are increasingly limited, especially our water resources. And so, you know, that all ties back to the Colorado River. It makes me wonder why we're thinking about data centers here at all. Or not just data centers, but other really large industrial uses as well. You know, there was, for example, I heard about a diaper plant that wanted to move into a city that is further south in the state, but the amount of water it ended up not happening because the amount of water it was going to take to make diapers, I had no idea.

00:39:54:21 - 00:40:15:24
Kelly Kopp: But apparently it takes a lot of water to make a diaper. So, you know, we have to think about that, right? And hopefully the folks who are negotiating on the Colorado River stuff right now are thinking about those things, because there are other parts of the country where it would seem to make more sense to locate larger water users or data centers.

00:40:15:24 - 00:40:40:08
Kelly Kopp: So we shall see what happens with those negotiations. I know that it's quite contentious between the upper basin states. Utah is one in the lower basin states. California is one. I like fruits and vegetables, however, so I want California to have some water so they can keep growing. I mean, that's where we get a lot of those things in this country.

00:40:40:08 - 00:40:50:14
Kelly Kopp: And I'm not sure how much folks understand that, how interconnected we all are in terms of how we use that water in the, in the products we get from it.

00:40:50:15 - 00:40:50:28
Mike Collignon: Yeah.

00:40:50:29 - 00:40:55:22
Mike Collignon: And I'm glad you brought up the the states of the Great Salt Lake, because.

00:40:55:23 - 00:40:57:07
Mike Collignon: I think people who.

00:40:57:09 - 00:41:03:14
Mike Collignon: Pay somewhat attention to water in the West, they hear about Lake Mead, they hear about.

00:41:03:16 - 00:41:03:23
Mike Collignon: Lake.

00:41:03:24 - 00:41:07:12
Mike Collignon: Powell, they don't necessarily hear about Great Salt Lake as much.

00:41:07:14 - 00:41:28:22
Kelly Kopp: Right? Right. And it is a terminal lake. So you mentioned reuse in northern Utah, which is where the Great Salt Lake watershed is. We don't talk about we don't talk about reuse because we want we want that water to move through and get to the lake. So there are other parts of the state where reuse does make sense and they are installing reuse.

00:41:28:22 - 00:41:53:20
Kelly Kopp: But here in the northern part of Utah, not so much because we want all of that as much as possible to go to the lake. I am quite concerned about the health of that lake. It is. You know, I mentioned the ecological importance of the lake. I really can't overstate that in terms of the not only migratory birds, but other wildlife as well.

00:41:53:20 - 00:42:17:05
Kelly Kopp: And it's just it's at its lowest point in many years. And I think that at the end of this summer, it may likely be at its lowest point in history, at least since we've been measuring the depth of the lake. And so it's it is of great concern. It is of great concern, and it is hugely important to this part of the state.

00:42:17:05 - 00:42:22:25
Kelly Kopp: And by the way, 95% of our population lives right along the shore of that lake.

00:42:22:25 - 00:42:24:08
Mike Collignon: So really?

00:42:24:11 - 00:42:28:26
Kelly Kopp: Yes. So we have got a lot of work to do there. Yeah.

00:42:28:27 - 00:42:29:17
Mike Collignon: Oh my gosh.

00:42:29:18 - 00:42:48:06
Mike Collignon: And you would think with people living that close to it, that they would have a deeper connection to it and want to see it preserved or not go away or not be hurt, you know. Yes, you would think it would be that kind of emotional connection.

00:42:48:11 - 00:43:12:07
Kelly Kopp: Well, there is, there is, but there's also this incredibly fast growing population and this incredibly, incredibly desperate need for housing for that population. And so there's all this development going on, right? And all of those homes, they're going to have people living in them who want to probably flush their toilets, I'm guessing, and drink water, not to mention what they might use outdoors.

00:43:12:07 - 00:43:26:24
Kelly Kopp: So it's just all of these threads sort of coming together. And I feel like right now it's in a big not. And there's a lot of folks working to untangle it, but it is a tricky, tricky problem, no question.

00:43:26:28 - 00:43:31:17
Mike Collignon: So nobody's there promoting composting toilets and waterless urinals right now.

00:43:31:20 - 00:43:35:15
Kelly Kopp: Not yet.

00:43:35:17 - 00:43:37:13
Kelly Kopp: Who knows, we could get there.

00:43:37:18 - 00:43:39:11
Mike Collignon: So we'll see how these negotiations.

00:43:39:11 - 00:43:40:16
Mike Collignon: End up.

00:43:40:18 - 00:43:41:06
Kelly Kopp: Yeah.

00:43:41:06 - 00:44:05:14
Kelly Kopp: Well, so that's the other thing in the state of Utah. I'm going to give them another shout out. So they also will provide toilets to to citizens of Utah who want to replace high flow toilets with low flow toilets. So, you know, they're doing a lot of things to help, but I do we do all have to be all hands on deck, all Rowan in the same direction to get where we need to go.

00:44:05:15 - 00:44:22:10
Kelly Kopp: And sadly, the history of terminal lakes like the Great Salt Lake in the work, the history in the world is not great, but I am hoping I've got all my fingers and toes crossed that we will be the exception to that rule.

00:44:22:12 - 00:44:55:13
Mike Collignon: Well, I can attest to the progress that the state has made in this regard, because when I first started interacting with people at the state level in Utah, the year was 2018, and I remember the comment that was made by that particular person whose name I won't share. The comment was, we're a little behind. And, you know, there was there was some shame and embarrassment in that statement.

00:44:55:13 - 00:45:01:13
Mike Collignon: And now, you know, it feels like there's been a lot of progress and it's only been eight years. And so.

00:45:01:14 - 00:45:01:26
Kelly Kopp: Yeah.

00:45:01:28 - 00:45:20:26
Mike Collignon: Yeah, yeah for sure. There's definitely there's definitely the state's moving in the right direction in this regard. And I'm happy to see it. And I think the whole state is happy by you know just common sense things like what you're talking about that don't really infringe upon your life and yet still make the place better.

00:45:20:28 - 00:45:22:29
Kelly Kopp: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

00:45:23:01 - 00:45:42:12
Mike Collignon: Yeah. So last question, Kelly, you got a chance to work with college students for 18 years, 17, 18 years. What's what's the biggest takeaway that you hope that they took from your classes?

00:45:42:14 - 00:46:12:22
Kelly Kopp: Wow I well, you know what you always hope is that they become lifelong learners and stay curious about things. You know, I always tried to bring in real life examples. I tried to bring in, you know, the latest and greatest technologies, guest speakers to sort of inspire their thinking about these topics. And even though it was an irrigation design class I taught, I always put it in the larger context.

00:46:12:22 - 00:46:35:27
Kelly Kopp: So why are we even thinking about this? Kids, I call them kids. Why are we thinking about this? Kids? I mean, this is something. So that's an opportunity to educate on what's going on with the climate in this part of the country, what's going on with our water challenges, what's going on with the Great Salt Lake? Because, you know, it's super inspiring to be in the classroom with students.

00:46:35:27 - 00:46:43:15
Kelly Kopp: They're so curious. They're so excited about things. I mean, I can remember being that excited about things.

00:46:43:17 - 00:46:46:23
Kelly Kopp: These days. It feels a little more stressful.

00:46:46:26 - 00:47:08:20
Kelly Kopp: The problem seemed kind of challenging. But, you know, they're they're just so creative and they just give me a lot of hope for solving some of the challenges that we face. And I've heard a lot of other folks say that, but it is absolutely the truth. It is absolutely the truth. They are. I was just a graduation last week.

00:47:08:23 - 00:47:22:11
Kelly Kopp: It is just you can just feel the joy, the positive energy, the excitement, like they're just raring to go and get out there and do something fantastic. And that's that's why I go to graduation every year.

00:47:22:11 - 00:47:22:25
Kelly Kopp: I mean,

00:47:22:26 - 00:47:45:01
Kelly Kopp: I might be feeling kind of down in the dumps, but then I go to graduation and it's like, we're in good hands. We are in good hands with these kids, and I think they're more aware than maybe we have been in the past about some of the challenges that we're facing, but I think they've got the motivation and skill and wherewithal to do something about it.

00:47:45:01 - 00:47:47:00
Kelly Kopp: So yeah.

00:47:47:01 - 00:47:56:10
Mike Collignon: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Kelly, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I really appreciated the time and the conversation. It was fun.

00:47:56:13 - 00:47:59:09
Kelly Kopp: Me too. Mike, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

00:47:59:15 - 00:48:06:13
Mike Collignon: Stay tuned for more episodes of the Impact Series podcast on the Green Builder Media Network. I'm Mike Ligon and I'll see you again soon.

00:48:06:17 - 00:48:17:24
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