Eric Werling, national director of the Department of Energy's Building America and Zero Energy Ready Homes programs, reviews where indoor air quality science, ventilation standards, and smart ventilation technology are heading, and what builders need to do to deliver verifiably healthy homes.
00:00:02:11 - 00:00:29:13
Mike Collignon: The timing of this webinar could not be better. Why? Well, because we are in Clean Air month. We're in Asthma Awareness Month and this week is Air Quality Awareness Week. And if you didn't know those things, consider yourself aware now. Climate change and the pandemic both are increasingly affecting business decisions government policy slash politics and our daily lives.
00:00:29:18 - 00:00:50:00
Mike Collignon: Public builders are following Wall Street in the SEC, figuring out new ESG reporting requirements. But meanwhile, homeowners are more aware that they need ventilation to keep building safe. So that means both the supply and the demand for healthy homes are going up. Now, we're not out of the woods yet on either of those crises, but one thing is clear.
00:00:50:06 - 00:01:20:26
Mike Collignon: Moving forward, we're all going to need to pay more attention to healthy, efficient features and technologies in our homes. Now, Erik Worland is our guest today, and he's here to summarize the hard and soft trends in healthy homes, science, technology and standards because we need to figure out where we are with the science of Iirc and healthy homes ventilation standards and where they're going, and new and upcoming smart ventilation and healthy home technologies you should look out for.
00:01:21:00 - 00:01:46:04
Mike Collignon: Otherwise, home buyers know whether their home is healthy. So Erik Whirling is our national director of the US Department of Energy's Building America and Zero Energy Ready Homes programs. Yeah, he actually picked up same old gig. Now, since 2011, Eric has worked with industry partnership teams and Doe National Laboratories to transform building science, knowledge and innovations into proven best practices for the housing industry.
00:01:46:05 - 00:02:15:28
Mike Collignon: Saving Americans 30 plus dollars for every dollar spent. How's that for ROI? And today, Eric's team is leveraging building American knowledge and resources to help the Zero Energy Ready Homes program demonstrate healthy, high performance homes and ultimately prove that net zero emissions homes are better and more affordable. Now, prior to his time at Doe, Eric served the US EPA, where he launched the Indoor Air Plus program in 2009.
00:02:15:28 - 00:02:51:26
Mike Collignon: And before that, Eric worked at ICF consulting, where he helped the EPA and Sam developed the implementation, developed and implement the successful Energy Star for New Homes program. Eric holds a master's in Architectural Engineering and an MBA, both from Penn State University and a bachelor's from the US Naval Academy. Now, I mentioned Sam Raskin earlier, and for those of you who don't know him, Sam earned a national reputation, as does Building Technologies at Building Technology Office, for his work leading housing programs that have partnered with thousands of home builders and resulted in over 1 million certified high performance homes.
00:02:51:27 - 00:03:15:02
Mike Collignon: Now, he retired from that agency a little over a year ago, and he's now solely focused on creating and teaching the content for the housing 2.0 program. And that content is based largely on Sam's book, which Eric just happens to have. It's called housing 2.0 Disruption Survival Guide. The program empowers building professionals to design and construct higher performance, healthier, more sustainable homes and a fraction of the cost.
00:03:15:09 - 00:03:24:03
Mike Collignon: And you learn more about that program, please visit WW Builder Media.
00:03:24:05 - 00:03:26:20
Mike Collignon: Two.
00:03:26:22 - 00:03:49:20
Mike Collignon: Now, before we get to Eric's presentation, I need to make you aware of our sponsors. The first is Mitsubishi Electric. Mitsubishi Electric promotes sustainable building through the electrification of residential and commercial heating and cooling products. Their mission is to advanced technologies that reduce waste output, promote sustainable resource cycles while increasing energy efficiency, and eliminating dependance on fossil fuels.
00:03:49:23 - 00:04:25:17
Mike Collignon: Next is Westlake Royal. Building products. They are the North American leader in the innovation, design and production of a broad and diverse range of exterior and interior building products, including siding and accessories, trim and molding, roofing, stone windows and outdoor living. For more than 50 years, Westlake Royal Building Products has manufactured high quality, low maintenance products to meet the specifications and needs of building professionals, homeowners, architects, engineers and distributors, while providing stunning curb appeal with an unmatched array of colors, styles and accessories.
00:04:25:18 - 00:04:52:20
Mike Collignon: For more information, please visit Westlake Royal Building Products. And finally, Schneider Electric is driving the digital transformation of modern homes with smart and sustainable energy solutions for ultimate comfort and energy efficiency. Their connected home ecosystem of smart energy management solutions provides digital control of energy use throughout a home from the grid via their smart electrical panel to their connected wiring devices.
00:04:52:26 - 00:05:14:13
Mike Collignon: This grid to plug solution makes it significantly easier to create smart solar power and backup power ready homes, both now and in the future. Now, if you have any questions during this conversation and presentation, please enter them into the questions box which is found on the Go to Webinar Control Panel. I'm going to review those questions and I will ask them on your behalf.
00:05:14:16 - 00:05:20:11
Mike Collignon: Now, Sam, I know you want to say a few words about Eric. So the floor is yours.
00:05:20:14 - 00:05:49:02
Sam Rashkin: This must be my cue. Thank you everyone for attending. This is once again a case of me abusing really good friendships that I had. Eric and I go way back to the very first days I got into Washington, D.C. from my prior position in California, and Eric was one of the first collaborators I met with. We've had just a long, impressive run together, and over that time, I just had this amazing appreciation for just how thoughtful he is.
00:05:49:09 - 00:06:14:11
Sam Rashkin: Meticulous is that his work is just passion for all the subject that he deals with, with housing and health. And Eric sits at the perch of our nation's largest investment in residential health programs and research. So he's the best person I could think of to really bring to this series, kind of a thought leadership about where health is going in the future.
00:06:14:15 - 00:06:27:01
Sam Rashkin: The cover in a lot of detail during the workshops, but I'm just so grateful that Eric can join us and kind of take it to the next step. So enjoy. Eric, I think today there won't be a guitar. Is that right? Eric? No guitar content.
00:06:27:03 - 00:06:31:07
Eric Werling: Sorry about that. Sam. You got to put in the request early for that, right?
00:06:31:09 - 00:06:44:02
Sam Rashkin: If you ever see Eric present live, I promise you, probably 90% of the time there will be a song first. But here he is, is real special. I hope you enjoy him.
00:06:44:04 - 00:07:26:14
Eric Werling: All right. Thank you so much, Sam and Mike. What a fun intro that was. I really appreciate that. And I wanted to start with the question that Sam always challenged me and all of my other colleagues, all of our other colleagues at the department, which is first, why are we doing what we're doing? The public is entrusted, you know, us with a mission to improve the housing stock with limited resources, etc. and you really just have to understand why you do what you do.
00:07:26:15 - 00:07:36:04
Eric Werling: And I'm taking another cue from Sam's book by showing you that, whoops, I went the wrong way.
00:07:36:06 - 00:08:06:01
Eric Werling: This is why I do it. Sam in his first book, in his preface, he started out with its first housing is personal to him and and it is to me too. And that's why we've had such a long and, you know, effective relationship together. This is a picture of my daughter and my first grandson. And, you know, really this helps to show that.
00:08:06:03 - 00:08:25:17
Eric Werling: It just sort of brings it home, that why do we want to build better houses? Well, we want to build them for the next generation. And why do we want to build cleaner, more energy efficient houses? The same thing for the next generation and the generations after that? So we can have both clean homes and a clean planet.
00:08:25:17 - 00:08:52:20
Eric Werling: So with that, I also want to show you a less happy photo. This is a picture of my grandson, my daughter and my grandson Cal, in the hospital recently because he had obstructive breathing disorder and that scared the big out of all of us in the family. He was in the hospital for eight days. Lots of tests, all sorts of challenges.
00:08:52:20 - 00:09:22:15
Eric Werling: And what it boiled down to was that it wasn't just one thing. He had Covid. Yes, he also had rhinovirus, which is otherwise the cold, otherwise known as the cold. And it's also likely that he has asthma. So there you have it. The hospital had a hard time just controlling his breathing. ET cetera. So that he could he could, he wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't get to a bad situation.
00:09:22:17 - 00:09:30:28
Eric Werling: But this was for our family, a really, you know, sort of a wake up call for.
00:09:31:00 - 00:10:06:19
Eric Werling: Health issues related to to the breathing. I mean, it's just sort of fundamental. And when you can't breathe it, everything else is done. So with that, I also wanted to mention the two crises that might discussed in the opening remarks there real quick. The climate crisis is one of them. And the bad news regarding the climate is that this is straight out of the IPCC report that just came out.
00:10:06:21 - 00:10:41:22
Eric Werling: Most of those indicators are still going up. So we continue to increase the amount of greenhouse gases we're putting into the environment. And that could lead to some some bad events down the road, increases the urgency and increases the imperative that we do something to clean up our act. The good news coming out of that, that IPCC is that if you look at this graph, you can see that these are the.
00:10:41:25 - 00:11:32:05
Eric Werling: Adoption rates of several of the renewable, clean, renewable energy technologies. And they're mostly going at exponential rates and have been for a long time. If you look at the photovoltaic onshore and offshore wind, you'll see that in five years or less, those markets have doubled and that doubling has continued over ten years. So if that pace increases, we'll get from roughly a 9% market share for those renewable electricity generating sources, and we'll get all the way up to 40, 50% in, you know, maybe a decade or a decade and a half.
00:11:32:08 - 00:11:58:22
Eric Werling: Good news. Keep your fingers crossed and keep working on it. The second crisis that Mike mentioned, and that I'm thinking about a lot, is with the pandemic, which killed a million, almost a million Americans scare most of us, and it changed our lives. That's the bad news. And there's my other daughter who was scared throughout that whole thing.
00:11:58:27 - 00:12:21:20
Eric Werling: The good news about the pandemic is that we know more a lot. We know a lot more about disease transmission. It raised our awareness across our society about IQ and the need for ventilation. And for me personally, I've been focused on IQ and ventilation in the context of high performance homes for 25 years. So to me, that was good news.
00:12:21:20 - 00:12:52:11
Eric Werling: That's why I put this in Green fund. Because if if it takes a pandemic to help people become more aware of the systems in our buildings that can help improve our quality of life, so be it. And I'm glad it happened. It also has changed our lives for the better in some regards. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have taken advantage of being able to do work from home find that we have more flexibility and sometimes more productivity than ever before.
00:12:52:11 - 00:13:20:11
Eric Werling: So, so both good and bad regarding these two crises. But I believe both of them are are going to be sticking with us for a while. So future of healthy homes. I have in mind talking about each of those issues the science, the technology, the standards. But I want to start out with a little sue saying, what is the future of American homes look like?
00:13:20:11 - 00:13:54:16
Eric Werling: And I'm just going to get right to the punch. I think that zero emission homes will become standard by 2035. I have a question mark there because maybe it's going to be by 2030. Maybe it's going to be 2038, I don't know. I also think Americans will continue to increased demand for healthier, safer homes. The more information that becomes available to consumers about the quality and the safety of their home environment, the more they're going to demand that solutions and standards protect their families.
00:13:54:16 - 00:14:21:17
Eric Werling: Because after all, the our families are the most important things that we have measured. Performance has been a real difficult challenge for us in the building arena for, for, for many, many years. But the technology is improving. Standards are slowly but surely improving, and I think the technology will enable us to make some of this performance measurement automatic over time.
00:14:21:17 - 00:14:59:16
Eric Werling: And that's going to be a game changer when it happens. Internet of things and smart grid devices are going to start to are going to continue to proliferate. They've been proliferating to some extent in the last ten years, but they're going to keep going. They're going to get smarter and smarter. They're going to get connected to controls that can actually manage some of the problems that we have in homes like maintenance issues, excessive energy use, comfort problems, indoor air quality problems, etc. and those devices are going to get smarter.
00:14:59:17 - 00:15:35:03
Eric Werling: There's there's no way that they'll get dumber. They will get smarter. We just don't know the pace at which they will. And then finally, I think once the knowledge base about what's actually happening in consumers homes, once that becomes more available to consumers through their smartphone applications, through their thermostat that talks to them, through their smart speakers, etc., sooner or later, people are going to want solutions to the problems that are becoming more transparent.
00:15:35:03 - 00:16:26:01
Eric Werling: So the solutions often have to do with preventative maintenance. So I predict that businesses will offer solutions that provide better preventative maintenance solutions and programs at financing or, you know, with financial affordable plans, etc. think of it as HVAC service plans, only actually delivering on the promise of better comfort reliably. So those are the things that I think are going to come down the pipe with regards to housing over the next ten plus years, and we've got a lot of indication that the pace of housing innovation has been picking up over the last 15, 20 years since we've been watching it closely.
00:16:26:01 - 00:16:54:18
Eric Werling: Consumers are demanding green and energy efficiency, and that includes the indoor Air Plus label in there. That program is just about to reach 40,000 labeled homes, and the curve has been accelerating in recent years. Here's a graph I made that shows the two programs most near and dear to my heart. I left Energy Star off of this just so you could keep the scale at a reasonable level.
00:16:54:18 - 00:17:26:20
Eric Werling: But the Indoor Air Plus program, which has been around for 14 years, it has been growing at more than an exponential rate in the last couple of years. And obviously Covid probably had a lot to do with that. We can't prove that yet, but it's but it seems obvious to me. And then indoor air. Plus I'm sorry, the Zero Energy Ready Homes program at Doe, which requires indoor Air Plus, has one of the prerequisites, has also been growing at an amazingly similar growth curve to the indoor Air Plus.
00:17:26:21 - 00:17:57:10
Eric Werling: Incidentally, the first 7 or 8 years of these two programs also looks a lot like the first 7 or 8 years of the Energy Star program historically. So here are some other things that I think are going to happen in the future there. Actually, some of them are happening now, but they're not happening everywhere yet. But these devices for detecting defects in buildings are getting more and more accessible, cheaper and cheaper.
00:17:57:10 - 00:18:28:28
Eric Werling: Sooner or later, everybody's going to be able to see the defects in buildings, and that includes buyers. The same will be true for indoor air quality problems and detected pollutants or environmental conditions that are unacceptable inside homes, and the devices are now cheap. There's a little bit of room to to go on improving the accuracy of these devices, but they're cheap enough for consumers to own.
00:18:28:29 - 00:18:55:10
Eric Werling: So sooner or later, indoor air quality problems are going to be transparent as well. Even if you can't detect it with your nose, which is the which is the detection device that we're that we all have some other trends that used to be invisible and are starting to become more visible, which is that buyers see the experiences of other consumers.
00:18:55:10 - 00:19:25:21
Eric Werling: And we start to see that, of course, in products. We're totally used to that now, homes. It's also starting to happen there too. And then finally, one last issue about the future that I think is going to become more and more important is as we get better metrics and as we get better solutions for preventing disasters or preventing the bad outcomes that come from disasters in homes, we're going to get safer and safer homes.
00:19:25:23 - 00:19:54:28
Eric Werling: And here's just a variety of the issues that are listed and the list goes on. So I think we're on the road to clean healthier homes. I think it's going to take a long time before technology and standards, etc. bring it all away. But we have seen progress and it's going to continue to move forward. So let me talk a little bit about the science of healthy homes right now.
00:19:55:01 - 00:20:23:24
Eric Werling: First, we know a lot about what causes bad indoor air quality. And it really just sort of fits into three categories. Odors are those things that lead to primarily the perception of that indoor air quality. Some odors, some things that cause odors are also in the second category, which is pollutants that can be detected, measured and at high enough levels can be hazardous.
00:20:23:24 - 00:20:49:17
Eric Werling: And then finally moisture, which is also related to some of the pollutants. So for instance, lots of biological contaminants that we find in homes can be controlled by controlling moisture. So water itself isn't a hazard or a pollutant. But if there's too much water in the wrong places, it's correlated with pollutants that can be that can hurt indoor air quality.
00:20:49:18 - 00:21:24:26
Eric Werling: So we know a lot about those three categories of things that cause bad indoor air quality problems. So what about the contaminants and the science related to them that cause the most health harm? And this is a graph. I'm not going to get into too much detail here, but I'm going to just sort of show you this so that you understand that a lot of science has gone into figuring out what are the pollutants that show up most often and have been correlated with population level harm.
00:21:24:26 - 00:21:38:04
Eric Werling: And that harm is a bit of a complicated factor because it includes both death and non death events like.
00:21:38:06 - 00:22:22:16
Eric Werling: You know, disability, etc.. So all those are rolled up into this metric that we call disability adjusted life years, and that can be quantified and then turned into a dollar amount, because the amount of years in the deaths can be associated with, with, you know, economic harm, etc.. So this is a list that you see here of the major pollutants that have been associated with that were that are found indoors, that have been associated with major population level harms, and the ones that come to the top of the list are 2.5.
00:22:22:17 - 00:22:58:29
Eric Werling: For those of you who haven't heard that term, that's particulate matter at the 2.5 micron size or lower. That's really small particles that stay airborne for a very, very long time, meaning days, weeks, months. Second hand smoke is the second most harmful moisture and mold. And all of the things that are associated with moisture are sort of categorized together and lumped into that third one, radon, formaldehyde.
00:22:58:29 - 00:23:19:07
Eric Werling: And then these other three are sort of tied across ozone. And no, two ozone comes from a few different sources. Nitrous oxide comes from combustion like from, you know.
00:23:19:09 - 00:23:23:16
Eric Werling: Gas cooking, for instance, or.
00:23:23:19 - 00:24:01:27
Eric Werling: Or gas furnaces or hot water heaters, etc. they're usually pretty small levels, but even small levels can be harmful. And then occurring is also related to cooking. It's coming from the heating up of the certain biological compounds in the food that were that we're eating up. So we also have well-established principles based on science, monitoring what the effects are of different measures that you can take in buildings, including source control and isolation, dilution by ventilation.
00:24:01:27 - 00:24:33:10
Eric Werling: That's where we come up with the ashtray standard 62.2 ventilation requirements and then removal by filtration. And the prevailing wisdom today is that we should do all three of these, and we should do them in this order in order to minimize the risk of indoor air quality problems in homes. So here's a little bit more granular science. Semi ACU issues are getting better.
00:24:33:12 - 00:25:03:29
Eric Werling: This is some of the good news. This is based on a study in California of 70 homes that the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab did. And these are showing hinge is just the nickname for the or the acronym for the study. The hench homes are were completed their their field results were completed in recent years. The California new Home study was completed back in 2009.
00:25:03:29 - 00:25:36:07
Eric Werling: So there's a ten year difference between these two. And you can see that formaldehyde emissions detected in the new homes in the Hench study were quite a bit less all, you know, pretty close to to 60% of or 40% reduction compared to homes built ten years earlier. So there's a story there about removing or lowering the amount of formaldehyde that's allowed in the building materials.
00:25:36:10 - 00:26:05:20
Eric Werling: And so that's an example of source control. This is actually affected the air quality for a good in in new homes. So that's a great story PM 2.5 has gone down. That's a more complicated story. And I'm not going to get into reasons there. But there's also some good going on there. And then no. Two, those are so close that we sort of call it even and say we've still got some work to do there.
00:26:05:22 - 00:26:34:26
Eric Werling: But, you know, good news out over balancing the bad news here in that new homes are probably better indoor air quality today than they were ten years ago. So that's a good thing. Ventilation systems are becoming standard in homes. This the this is data from the California study. But we're also doing a similar study nationally with the Building of Erica program, which will augment all of this data.
00:26:34:26 - 00:27:04:19
Eric Werling: And within about a year, we'll have data similar to this for five additional parts of the country. But what this is telling us is that, you know, for ease of installation, the builders are by and large, over sizing the ventilation systems. You know, just because it's easier to install a larger fan than, you know, to try and find the exact size that you need for the standard.
00:27:04:19 - 00:27:37:05
Eric Werling: So, so that's good news, that we have the capability to deliver ventilation in these new homes, which are tighter. We also have data about that. And I can show you that. One of the problems though, that was that has been detected in more than one study, is that, you know, only a fraction of the homes when investigated in the field actually had systems that were running that many of them had been turned off.
00:27:37:10 - 00:28:15:00
Eric Werling: So that's an argument for potentially developing better automated controls or sensing IQ, you know, contaminant based controls, etc., that could respond to the need for indoor air quality mitigation, etc. but it is something to watch out for. If we have systems that are capable of cleaning, of removing contaminants, but they're not being used, how do we do a better job there?
00:28:15:03 - 00:28:43:13
Eric Werling: Another interesting part of that study is that they looked at whether or not labels for the ventilation systems made a difference in. The answer is yes. Those systems that were labeled were much more likely to be on. So there could just be a, a lack of information going on that prevents people from using their ventilation. They just didn't understand that I was actually helping new grew the indoor quality in their homes.
00:28:43:15 - 00:29:14:06
Eric Werling: Here's another aspect of the science that has been getting a lot of attention lately. That outdoor quality isn't always good. In this case. Wildfire is an example, and it's a big it's an important one because wildfire smoke events have been getting bigger and more frequent in recent years and is probably correlated to the climate change. So that's probably not going to get better anytime soon.
00:29:14:10 - 00:29:44:16
Eric Werling: So that we're kind of stuck with the fact that, especially in the West, but maybe, you know, there parts of the country as well, we're going to have to deal with these kind of events where, oh, so maybe outdoor air ventilation isn't the right thing all the time. Maybe we need smarter controls to help us to determine whether or not outdoor air is desired at the rate specified in 62.2, and if not, what to do about it.
00:29:44:22 - 00:30:12:20
Eric Werling: It does raise sort of a thorny question and issue, which is what do you do when you've got contaminants both outside and inside that could potentially compete? Oh, I want ventilation. No, I don't want ventilation in in this case for indoor contaminants and outdoor contaminants like wildfire smoke. One solution that can help with both is filtration and airplane.
00:30:12:20 - 00:30:41:11
Eric Werling: So so a more nuanced strategy with better detection and controls is clearly needed. And some of the technology to to to move in that direction is being developed as we speak. One, I think this is the last issue on the science that I wanted to mention, which is cooking emissions matter and they are they are nuanced, just like the last slide.
00:30:41:14 - 00:31:22:08
Eric Werling: Gas cooking does produce some pollutants and sometimes they're not vented. If people aren't using the arrangements, for instance, they include particles from, you know, combustion of dust and dirt, etc. in the air, CO2 and water vapor. And then no. Two and nitrous oxide and carbon monoxide are in small amounts also emitted from open flames. Electric resistance stoves, for instance, are not completely clean either.
00:31:22:10 - 00:31:35:07
Eric Werling: What? They are very hot and so dust in the air. Can, you know, alter fine particles, etc. can be emitted because of the.
00:31:35:10 - 00:32:12:11
Eric Werling: Interaction with the stove itself. Induction doesn't cause as much of those kinds of pollutants. Both classifications of electric cooking produce fewer pollutants, but not none. And then finally just heating up. Food itself produces some of the pollutants that, if not properly vented, can build up in a home. And it's not just odors. It can also be some of these pollutants that I showed on that earlier chart.
00:32:12:14 - 00:32:18:06
Eric Werling: So.
00:32:18:09 - 00:32:50:16
Eric Werling: Here's another okay, I did add these slides. Here's another couple of studies that I think are interesting and worth mentioning real briefly, which is that there has been some analysis done on the potential impacts of smart ventilation. It can be, you know, for energy savings benefits and that can be significant. So balancing between energy savings and indoor air quality can be an important technology that we need.
00:32:50:16 - 00:33:17:00
Eric Werling: So look out for smart ventilation. And then there's also been some recent studies on the effectiveness of indoor air quality monitors. I mentioned those before. They're proliferating. I don't know how many consumers use them now, but we definitely know there's been an increase in their sales. And who knows what happens when people buy one of these things. They install them in their home.
00:33:17:00 - 00:33:47:05
Eric Werling: And, you know, are they complaining to their builders if they see something that they're concerned about? I don't know. So some research is needed there. But the accuracy of these things has been tested and they are getting better. They are not perfect. There are some issues, like in particular, CO2 measurements can be inaccurate. Low level carbon monoxide measurements can be poor.
00:33:47:07 - 00:34:17:11
Eric Werling: And then some of the VOC measurements can be problematic. But some of the other measurements, like particulates, can, you know, which was at the top of the list, can actually be pretty accurate in these things. So they are getting better, and I would expect to see more use and more utility with these kinds of things. So there are here's a list of things that we still need to address.
00:34:17:13 - 00:34:33:14
Eric Werling: Note for Mike, if you're listening, I don't see our our panel. So if you're giving me a visual cues I'm not seeing them and I don't know how to get it back. So I'm just just speak up if you have if you want to interrupt me.
00:34:33:16 - 00:34:36:02
Mike Collignon: Now we're all good Eric. Doing good. Okay.
00:34:36:04 - 00:34:57:06
Eric Werling: Thanks, Mike. Okay, so back to the slide. More IQ science needed. And this is just my off the top. I mean, I got slides in the slides and slides from the LDL scientists on what are all the things that we don't know that we need to do. And of course, the national lab scientists, that that's their job is to figure out what we don't know and to make some progress.
00:34:57:07 - 00:35:40:05
Eric Werling: I boiled it down to this, to this list, that we need better data about what's happening with ventilation system performance over time and different aspects of maintenance, etc. we need R&D to develop better automatic fault detection and diagnostics equipment for both HVAC and ventilation systems. We need to know to understand better the interactions of the filtration and air cleaning technology and the HVAC central systems, etc., and how that affects exposure reduction from indoor air quality technologies.
00:35:40:07 - 00:36:10:29
Eric Werling: There's a lot of work to be done in making sensors and controls integrated into HVAC controls. We're really at the early stages of that technology development. Lots more work to do in lowering emissions of materials and construction. I think just measuring the understand what is the indoor air quality in smaller dwellings? I mentioned the indoor air quality study that we're doing for Building America around the country.
00:36:10:29 - 00:36:46:21
Eric Werling: Those are in larger single family homes, representative of new single family homes. And that's pretty encouraging that the I and those homes is better than ten years ago or earlier. But we don't have like multi-family homes and and manufactured homes included in that sample set. So I think we need to study that because it's it's becoming more and more clear that the smaller, higher occupant density spaces are where the worst indoor air quality problems happen.
00:36:46:21 - 00:37:09:19
Eric Werling: So we need to study that sector more. And there's a lot of unknowns about low level and short duration exposure and the health effects of many of the common contaminants that I talked about. High level exposures are easier to understand because they're easy to measure. Low level exposures are harder. So so here's here's a wish list for research.
00:37:09:21 - 00:37:40:29
Eric Werling: Don't hold your breath, but we'll get answers to some of these over time. So let's jump to the standards part of the equation where our indoor air quality standards going. Here's a short list of things that are in the works for the ashtray standard 62.2 ventilation in Iirc standard better filtration requirements are likely but not passed yet. So Merv 13 is my best guess about what will happen sometime in the next few years.
00:37:41:02 - 00:38:16:21
Eric Werling: It's currently on Merv six. Merv eight has been the recommendation in some of our indoor air quality programs and like Indoor Air Plus, and that's also considering moving to a Merv 13, which is probably about the right level of filtration for new construction because it's associated with a substantial improvement in health related filtration, and it can be manageable if designed from the get go.
00:38:16:23 - 00:38:49:22
Eric Werling: Merv 13 can cause some pressure drop issues. If you put in a Merv 13 filter for a system that wasn't designed for a higher pressure drop. But not all Merv 13 filters end up with a higher pressure drop. So. So that's a bit of a complicated issue, but I expect it ultimately to lead to higher, higher filtration, higher levels in the standards range hood so far have have only been in the standard.
00:38:49:22 - 00:39:18:19
Eric Werling: And the in terms of what CFM and what we know now is that capture efficiency is not good for a lot of units, partly because of some of the units. It hasn't been a measurement that has the manufacturers have been responding to. And one and because there haven't been any standards now there are. And also because of installation of the arrangements, sometimes they're not installed according to manufacturers instructions.
00:39:18:19 - 00:39:43:19
Eric Werling: ET cetera, etc.. So I expect standards to address this set of issues. Now that we have a capture efficiency lab standard and we can start to to drill in on what's a recommended capture efficiency for arrangement, we are also seeing development of standards.
00:39:43:22 - 00:40:15:11
Eric Werling: Provisions that kind of allow for monitoring as a compliance path that for those of you who are familiar with Ashrae standard 62.1 for nonresidential buildings, they already have it. It's called the IQ procedure. We don't have it in residential in the residential standard 62.2, but it's being developed as we speak. We don't have any provision for outdoor air quality in the current standard, but I expect that to be addressed someday soon in the standards.
00:40:15:12 - 00:40:56:06
Eric Werling: Additional requirements for multifamily, in particular compartmentalization, which is the term we use for air tightening individual units to avoid transfer of bad air from one unit to another that's connected better approaches to verifying airflow of equipment. And then finally, there are some provisions in the standard for labeling, but we expect to see some improvements in clarification so that hopefully we'll start to see better labeling, which then we hope will lead to better use of the ventilation equipment.
00:40:56:06 - 00:41:28:22
Eric Werling: And then outside of the Ashrae space, there's definitely a need for better standards related to what are acceptable emissions. There's a lot of confusion out there about how much concentration of different pollutants is okay for long term exposures, etc., and differences in standards out there like World Health Organization might have a different standard than the EPA. And so I would hope that we're going to see some improvement there.
00:41:28:22 - 00:41:40:28
Eric Werling: But that's a longer term. That's why I got a big question mark there. That's a longer term wish list item for ventilation standard improvements.
00:41:41:00 - 00:41:51:05
Eric Werling: Here is just as an aside, but it's very interesting to me the ventilation standards that I.
00:41:51:07 - 00:42:31:21
Eric Werling: Guarding the kitchen and capture efficiency that I mentioned in a previous slide is actually being proposed as a California mandatory standard, and they have acknowledged that gas cooking releases more pollutants than electric cooking. So they've adjusted the capture efficiency requirement accordingly. This is a proposal. This is not final. But just to give you a sense that there may be some standards coming down the pike that would encourage.
00:42:31:24 - 00:43:13:28
Eric Werling: Electric cooking in order to help to improve the indoor air quality management through the standards process. I don't know how quickly any other jurisdiction outside of California would adopt this, but it seems likely that it will be adopted in California. Okay, so low emitting materials. I just wanted to flash up this as a reminder that there's there's a bit of a history here in that I showed you how the most recent California Indoor air quality study has led to some indication that formaldehyde emissions are going down in new homes.
00:43:13:28 - 00:43:51:23
Eric Werling: And that's really good news. And this is sort of a brief summary of the history of why we think that's happened. One is that California put in place a rule the California Air Resources Board put in place a rule in 2009 that limited formaldehyde emissions in certain building materials. And then the US Formaldehyde Control Act happened in 2010.
00:43:51:25 - 00:44:32:12
Eric Werling: As a result, partly as a result of California and then a lawsuit for that against EPA to enforce the California standard throughout nationally. And and products have been labeled starting in 2018. So we've seen that that product emissions regulation has affected the indoor quality of the homes through that study. So that's an interesting interaction. That sort of reminds me of I can remember Joe Seabrook saying that we shouldn't increase ventilation rates, we should reduce the emissions of the materials.
00:44:32:12 - 00:45:01:28
Eric Werling: And here's a great example. I don't think Joe was saying California should regulate formaldehyde in, in I mean, might have been saying that, but but he was advocating for something like what? What was done here, which is to control the emissions of the materials so that then we don't have to increase ventilation rates too high. And that's actually a pretty smart combination of policy.
00:45:02:00 - 00:45:26:11
Eric Werling: Now, I want to mention a couple of issues that the standards are not currently doing a very good job with, partly because of just practical issues like this one. Supply ventilation is really hard to verify. So even though the standard says to measure the flow rate of the of the ventilation device, it's really hard to actually do it in the field.
00:45:26:19 - 00:45:44:07
Eric Werling: This is an issue we've got to do something about. If we actually expect for supply ventilation systems to deliver the proper amounts of air in duct flows are also hard to measure. So there's another challenge that we have to deal with.
00:45:44:10 - 00:46:15:07
Eric Werling: Better labeling. I mentioned that before. Here's some examples of some some bad or nonexistent labeling and some good labeling. And so those are the standards issues and their evolution. Lots of unknowns there of course. And probably most of you know, the standards process is pretty messy because it's a consensus process where people with different agendas are arguing with each other about what the standard ought to be.
00:46:15:10 - 00:46:42:21
Eric Werling: I've been involved in that sausage making process for about 14 years now, and I've seen it all. But I still have high hopes for continual improvement. As slow as as it as it seems to be, it still is moving in the right direction. So let's talk a little bit about indoor air quality and healthy home technologies. Smart ventilation is where I wanted to start.
00:46:42:23 - 00:47:16:28
Eric Werling: Here are just a list of smart ventilation and healthy home technologies to look out for. So if there's any need for or demand for air cleaners looking for the certified air cleaners because not all are created a like and we're getting better at the certification and labeling of air cleaners. So pay attention to that stuff. Monitoring systems in HVAC systems.
00:47:17:01 - 00:47:52:27
Eric Werling: To operate air cleaners when needed, to give advice to ventilation, you know, to ventilate more in the case of wildfires or other detected pollutants, etc.. We are there are some solutions. I'll show you a picture of one in the later slide on simpler heat recovery ventilator solutions. That's an exciting area for me, and I've invested in one of my SBIR projects for a low cost.
00:47:53:00 - 00:48:26:20
Eric Werling: Self-powered, through the wall heat recovery ventilator. Potentially a game changer. We'll see smart ventilation controls that respond to outdoor conditions and time shift. These are things that I expect the core technology exists, but the technologies, you can't buy them yet. But the technology is getting closer and closer. And then what are the technologies that we can do to to reduce the need for burning stuff inside houses?
00:48:26:20 - 00:48:52:28
Eric Werling: So that's kind of a list of the technology, short list of the technologies to look out for that. I expect to show up in healthy homes in the near future. Low cost home IQ monitors I talked about this a little bit already. There are a whole bunch of things that they purport to measure. Some of them they do well, some of them they need some work.
00:48:53:00 - 00:49:26:16
Eric Werling: There's some. There's at least one product on the market that actually measures outdoor air and sends a control signal to the ventilation system itself. There are some questions about whether or not that can do a very good job of it. But but the technology exists currently to do pollutant based sensing real time ventilation system control. So be on the lookout for more products like that and hopefully they'll get better.
00:49:26:19 - 00:50:00:07
Eric Werling: Similar type of thing is available for in duct measurement of the quality of the air that's getting pushed through the HVAC system after the filters, etc.. So detecting contaminants, this technology and this particular one only sends a signal if the text something bad. It doesn't actually control anything yet, but I expect that to change over time. This there's a smart range hood that.
00:50:00:09 - 00:50:28:27
Eric Werling: Was developed by one of the Building America partners, Newport Partners, in conjunction with the largest fan manufacturer in the US for Newton, and I'm expecting them to release their smart range should later this year for commercial availability at a medium price point. So that's pretty exciting. Has quiet operation, energy efficiency, automatic operation. It turns on when it detects the cooking is happening.
00:50:28:27 - 00:50:56:23
Eric Werling: So so the occupant and it ratchets up depending on how much of a cooking event is happening. So if it's just, you know, a small you know, if it's not a big event that's happening, then it's not going to come on at full speed. And the consumer, you know, homeowner is going to be less likely to turn it off, etc..
00:50:56:23 - 00:51:23:14
Eric Werling: And then, of course, high capture efficiency is built into the design of this thing. So a lot of folks are excited about that. I got a huge number of hits when I published this one on LinkedIn recently, and here's a couple a few other projects that I'm currently working with. These are further down the line. These are small businesses that are doing research to improve different aspects of indoor air quality and healthy homes.
00:51:23:16 - 00:51:59:27
Eric Werling: This is a better membrane for energy recovery ventilators that has the it's very close to commercialization. It has the potential to improve the latent recovery efficiency of air by 30% or better without increasing the cost of the air. And that's a huge deal, especially for hot and humid climate. So be on the lookout. There's a few of the major manufacturers of VBS who are in talks with the Aspen Products Group with this technology, and I think it's getting close.
00:51:59:27 - 00:52:35:16
Eric Werling: Crossing fingers. Here is a early concept photo depiction of that modular ERV. Or it can come in a V, which is just through the wall. They have one of these prototypes with a small PV panel on the side that self powers it, so you don't have to wire it, which could be useful for retrofit applications. Low cost ductless just plug it in and it runs with wireless controls.
00:52:35:22 - 00:53:05:19
Eric Werling: That could be a game changer, especially for the smaller units like manufactured houses, multifamily units, etc. and these can theoretically the prototypes that they're working on, it can theoretically talk to each other so you can have more than one, one, one operating and supply mode while the others operating in exhaust or whatever. So this is a pretty cool technology for those of you who've looked at through the wall ventilation systems.
00:53:05:19 - 00:53:47:07
Eric Werling: This is comparable to the system that is available in Europe, but it's at a price point that's something like 30 to 40% of the. So I'm excited about this when it gets ready. But it's probably a couple of years out. And then finally another one I'm excited about. And this is a subtle development, but it's it's prototyping, testing and hopefully commercializing a low cost airflow sensor that would make it possible to do the commissioning of ventilation systems without those problems, without that difficulty of reaching the inlets or outlets of the equipment.
00:53:47:07 - 00:54:03:21
Eric Werling: And that's being developed with a partner called Ben Matic. So those are the technologies that I'm excited about moving forward that we can look forward to in healthier homes. And then finally.
00:54:03:23 - 00:54:33:02
Eric Werling: Awareness is going to be an important part of the equation. And I didn't really have much time in today's program to get into a lot of this, but I just wanted to call attention to the need for more awareness and then make show you an example of how awareness has increased in recent years because of what's going on.
00:54:33:03 - 00:55:08:14
Eric Werling: The Covid crisis has basically led to an increased demand for high Merv filtration. Those those guys can't produce 13 filters as fast as fast as they're they're selling. I don't know if you've tried to buy Merv 13 filter lately, but if you have, you'll attest to that. Portable air cleaner sales are going through the roof as well, and ventilation systems and products are doing just fine.
00:55:08:14 - 00:55:24:21
Eric Werling: So I think that the demand for these products relates to an increased awareness of the issues and how it affects the health of occupants in homes. So.
00:55:24:23 - 00:55:58:24
Eric Werling: Sort of a question, how will homebuyers know whether the home is healthy? And this is just a few random thoughts about it. Q monitor, as I mentioned before, certainly, you know, certification programs will lead to like an a ham sticker that gets applied to something that can help inform product selection, for instance, or 13 filters and education through labeling and packaging of the filter equipment, etc..
00:55:58:25 - 00:56:25:16
Eric Werling: So lots of ways to actually achieve increased homebuyer awareness. The one that I think is is probably has the most promise is where we can actually detect what the pollutants are in houses with those monitors, so improving the quality of that equipment. So that's all the prepared slides I have. And this is my grandson Cal saying goodbye, but I am available for questions.
00:56:25:16 - 00:56:35:22
Eric Werling: And Mike, if you want to take over and coach me through showing the show on the panel, we can open it up to questions at your Q.
00:56:35:25 - 00:56:36:24
Mike Collignon: And Mike. All right.
00:56:36:27 - 00:56:48:09
Sam Rashkin: When I go through the questions that come in for us. I have a whole boatload of questions I want to throw out at Eric. Whenever we use up the attendee questions.
00:56:48:11 - 00:56:49:18
Mike Collignon: Okay.
00:56:49:21 - 00:57:26:03
Mike Collignon: All right. Well, Eric, we've got a handful of questions that have come in. I wanted to ask a question for myself first because on that note, the last slide where he was waving goodbye to us. But the one before that. In your presentation, you cited asteroids 62.2, but how do you see, Iirc, getting any uptake within the IEC, especially for residential, because I think there are some states that just kind of or jurisdictions that point to that as opposed to Ashrae standards.
00:57:26:04 - 00:57:31:18
Mike Collignon: And, and is the IEC even the right vehicle at all?
00:57:31:21 - 00:58:07:26
Eric Werling: I think that the ICC is probably not the right vehicle for it, although I could argue either way. I mean, like is the energy conservation code, right? So it's by nature focused on how do we improve the efficiency of a home ventilation requirements according to actually 62.2 are to protect occupants for for health, you know health purposes. So you might argue that that should go in the residential code but it's not.
00:58:07:26 - 00:58:20:14
Eric Werling: So where does it fit and how how do we how do we get it into either one? It's a great question and I don't have the answer I guess.
00:58:20:17 - 00:58:27:13
Eric Werling: I think it's going to.
00:58:27:15 - 00:58:53:05
Eric Werling: One other thing. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how that's going to happen. Mike. It's a great question. I mean, I think what we've seen is that voluntary programs at first, you know, I mean, Sam can speak this too. At first when we launched Energy Star, that requiring the ashtray Standard 62 requirement wasn't something we could do.
00:58:53:06 - 00:59:18:20
Eric Werling: It was a it was a poison pill at the early days because people didn't know what it was. It was too hard to specify. They were worried about moisture problems, etc. so we just couldn't require it. But over the years has people got used to build type mentally, right. And the technology and specification and hey, they're their homes mostly didn't rot out when they ventilated them.
00:59:18:20 - 00:59:40:02
Eric Werling: If you if you follow best practices, etc. and with the help of Building America teams, etc., we got to the point where, hey, we can figure this out, we can do this ashtray standard 62.2 thing. And so there's a lot more uptake of it through the voluntary programs. When does that become a code requirement across the country? I don't know.
00:59:40:02 - 01:00:11:00
Eric Werling: And because I'm not responsible for the codes, I haven't focused on that question. But it is an interesting one. And incidentally, the manufactured housing Code, otherwise known as the HUD code, does have a ventilation requirement built into it. And, and so that's sort of closer to the arc. And it does include ventilation requirements. So maybe the arc is the right place for that.
01:00:11:00 - 01:00:16:23
Eric Werling: I don't know. It's it's an interesting question and unanswered at this point.
01:00:16:25 - 01:00:18:12
Mike Collignon: Okay.
01:00:18:15 - 01:00:48:03
Mike Collignon: But I get some other questions from our audience to Edward had a question. With the increased popularity of mini splits, especially that localized blower, is it easier to achieve and maintain Iirc with a centralized air distribution system? And he's also wanted, if you can comment on kind of just the pros and cons of. Iirc, with the variety of each VAC systems that are out there.
01:00:48:05 - 01:01:18:27
Eric Werling: Oh, that's a it's a great question. And I'm, I know that Edwards kind of hate my answer, which is it depends. Because you know what it you can have a good into our quality system design with every HVAC system, and you can have a poor and or a quality design. You know, with every HVAC system, it's possible to, to poorly implement all of these things.
01:01:19:00 - 01:01:25:23
Eric Werling: It in my experience, the systems that are.
01:01:25:26 - 01:01:59:12
Eric Werling: Most likely to be used properly are the ones that are simplest and most, most straightforward. Kind of gets back to that, you know, if the consumers understand their system, they're more likely to use it properly. So I think that's a really important factor with regards to mini split. If you're talking about Ductless mini splits, you know, of course they are not by design.
01:01:59:12 - 01:02:26:18
Eric Werling: They're serving the needs of a space, not the whole house. So it's most likely that that kind of a system would be would work best in conjunction with a, a smaller whole house ventilation system. So for instance, if you are using a central ERV or HRP in conjunction with mini splits for heating and cooling, that's a great way to go.
01:02:26:20 - 01:02:45:29
Eric Werling: On the other hand, if you have a central HVAC system, you can come up with good ventilation systems that work well also. So yeah, so sorry, Edward, for, you know, for that wishy washy answer, but it's the truth.
01:02:46:02 - 01:02:55:18
Mike Collignon: We've got a question from Justin. He's asking about computational fluid dynamics and that.
01:02:55:21 - 01:02:58:22
Mike Collignon: Yeah, but.
01:02:58:24 - 01:03:14:25
Mike Collignon: Is computational fluid dynamics aided design so helping with design, is that a factor being considered in the progression of industry standards for Iirc in commercial and or residential?
01:03:14:27 - 01:03:49:18
Eric Werling: I'd say the answer to that question is indirectly, in that there's plenty of computational fluid dynamics that happens in the research space, then filters to the engineering that goes into, you know, designing better distribution systems that achieve proper flow, etc.. Computational fluid dynamics is a very, you know, computational intensive activity, and it's only as good as the inputs that you put in.
01:03:49:18 - 01:04:18:11
Eric Werling: So I would be somewhat reluctant to use that from a quantitative perspective to design a system. However, it can be a great tool if you've if you've got a software package that does computational fluid dynamics, it can be a great tool for helping you or your clients to visualize what the air flows are going to look like and why.
01:04:18:11 - 01:04:40:27
Eric Werling: You might specify a certain type of system, and I think that's most useful, honestly, in convincing people not to cut corners on their HVAC system design. So that's a little bit of a, you know, sort of a trick answer, but hopefully that helps.
01:04:40:29 - 01:04:52:02
Mike Collignon: Question from Kevin. Is there a fresh air filtration for some of these simple through wall units?
01:04:52:04 - 01:05:22:02
Eric Werling: The the answer is yes. But we we'd have to look at it from the product to product. And the one that I showed just to just to be sure, just to be clear, is not commercially available yet. So it will have a filter in it. It'll take some engineering smarts to get it up to a high filtration level, because a small unit like that, you know, it's kind of hard to get a Merv 13 filter into it.
01:05:22:02 - 01:05:30:28
Eric Werling: So, yeah. So I the answer is yes, but you still got to read the specs already.
01:05:31:00 - 01:05:41:00
Sam Rashkin: Just again, emphasize or at least 2 or 3 different through the wall these on the market. It sounds like the major innovation will be cost savings. Although that's one thing.
01:05:41:04 - 01:05:41:26
Mike Collignon: Yeah.
01:05:41:29 - 01:05:57:22
Sam Rashkin: One from Ukraine is already about 3,040% lower costs than the lunacy. So you're already they are ready for the. It's just I know what the supply chain is like.
01:05:57:25 - 01:06:21:01
Mike Collignon: And and Kevin just adds that his issue is wildfire smoke, as you also referenced in your presentation. So the first question comes from there. So let's move to Susan's question. She's one. If you're familiar with GPS ionization systems.
01:06:21:04 - 01:06:22:19
Eric Werling: PS like.
01:06:22:20 - 01:06:24:05
Sam Rashkin: GPS.
01:06:24:07 - 01:06:30:07
Eric Werling: GPS no I'm not.
01:06:30:09 - 01:07:00:04
Eric Werling: I, I, I do know that air cleaning devices that use an ionization process are more likely to create ozone. And ozone created that way is a contaminant. So you got to be careful about anything that uses the ionization process to clean air. I'm not sure about the particular one that Susan mentioned in her question, though.
01:07:00:06 - 01:07:03:29
Mike Collignon: Yeah, GPS is the company name, but just ionization.
01:07:03:29 - 01:07:06:04
Mike Collignon: Just got it.
01:07:06:06 - 01:07:09:12
Mike Collignon: Yeah. So.
01:07:09:14 - 01:07:26:16
Mike Collignon: Let's go back for a second. We were talking about standards and codes and that sort of thing. We got a question from Ali. He's curious as to how fast are cities adopting or incorporating these kinds of changes into their codes?
01:07:26:19 - 01:08:11:09
Eric Werling: Yeah, that's a really good question. The state code adoption, which is the group of code adoption that I know the best, has been pretty slow for most states, generally six years behind the model code or more, which is 2 or 3 code cycles behind because there are three year code cycles and then many, if not most, cities, you know, model air codes after or just flat out adopt the state codes.
01:08:11:11 - 01:08:40:15
Eric Werling: So I would guess that there would be similar, you know, lagging in the stringency of the codes. So, you know, state of the art model codes at the national level usually take they can take anywhere from one year for the most aggressive states and cities to, you know, 12 plus years before those are adopted at those levels.
01:08:40:15 - 01:09:20:08
Eric Werling: I do think, though, that there is a recent trend. This is very recent. There's a recent trend towards cities and states getting more aggressive about climate mitigation goals and targets, etc., which is leading to more rapid adoption of more aggressive codes. And, you know, these types of issues get addressed through those. And so I think that the pace at which the codes are, are being adopted at local levels is accelerating.
01:09:20:10 - 01:09:27:06
Eric Werling: But it's it's a relatively new trend. So I don't know how fast it's going to go.
01:09:27:09 - 01:09:52:01
Mike Collignon: Well, you know, I would add to that, Eric, that, you know, you've got some states that have adopted net zero carbon type of legislation, and those time horizons vary 20, 30, 35, 40, 50. You know, my big question on some of those, without reading every word of the legislation, is what's the penalty if you don't? You know, what?
01:09:52:01 - 01:10:11:29
Mike Collignon: If you don't hit the target of we're going to be net zero carbon as a state by 2040. What's what's the what's the downside? I mean what's the penalty. So you know that's great. That's an aspiration. You want something you're striving towards. But if there's no penalties in there and you know, you get a change of heart at some point and they go, yeah, that thing.
01:10:11:29 - 01:10:12:23
Mike Collignon: But we don't have to worry.
01:10:12:23 - 01:10:13:18
Mike Collignon: About it.
01:10:13:21 - 01:10:15:23
Mike Collignon: That's my concern.
01:10:15:25 - 01:10:55:28
Eric Werling: Yeah. It's a, it's a it's a great point. And and I think you're right. On the other hand, if everybody did that and the predictions about what will happen if we miss, if we miss our targets bad, you know, then many jurisdictions will be impacted by these natural disasters increasing in larger severity. And and all it takes is one big natural disaster for there to be enough local demand for, you know, governments to do something.
01:10:55:28 - 01:11:23:25
Eric Werling: So so I think there's a counterbalance that's natural, that's built into this. If it if it turns out that the predictions of the increase in severity and frequency of these natural disasters goes up as the climate heats up, and we have lots of data to indicate that that's very likely, then I think it'll be self-correcting. But you're but you're right.
01:11:23:26 - 01:11:34:13
Eric Werling: I mean, human nature is such that if you're not, if nobody checks and you're not penalized for not meeting a goal, then it's pretty easy to to ignore the goal.
01:11:34:16 - 01:11:36:09
Mike Collignon: Yeah.
01:11:36:11 - 01:12:12:16
Mike Collignon: We have a couple of questions that are referencing specifically some slides that you showed and I would have popped in at the time for the questions came in later, and it would have kind of thrown off your your flow of your presentation. So we have a question from our friend Happe. He says in your slide where you were comparing electric cooking to gas cooking, he felt that the CFM numbers may have been backwards because if he was understanding the chart correctly, it looked like you had larger CFM numbers for smaller homes.
01:12:12:16 - 01:12:20:10
Mike Collignon: Was that was that how it was meant to be interpreted?
01:12:20:12 - 01:12:24:11
Eric Werling: I the only slide that I have, can I share my screen?
01:12:24:13 - 01:12:24:24
Mike Collignon: Yeah.
01:12:24:25 - 01:12:26:05
Mike Collignon: Yeah, you can go right ahead.
01:12:26:12 - 01:12:41:08
Eric Werling: How do I do that? Okay. There we go. So this is the only slide I have that I actually used put CFM in. Is this the one that you think he was referring to Mike.
01:12:41:10 - 01:12:41:28
Mike Collignon: I believe.
01:12:41:29 - 01:12:43:13
Mike Collignon: So, yeah.
01:12:43:13 - 01:12:53:12
Eric Werling: So what this is saying is that it's a proposed California standard, and it's saying that.
01:12:53:15 - 01:13:22:10
Eric Werling: For an electric stove at, say, you know, in a, in a house that's less than 1500 square foot, that's the very top row, then the the minimum capture efficiency needs to be 0.50 on a scale of 0 to 1. And the minimum airflow of the fan installed has to be 110 cfm for the same size home that has gas cooking.
01:13:22:17 - 01:13:43:07
Eric Werling: The minimum capture efficiency has to be 0.70 and then a minimum airflow. For that range, it has to be 180 cfm. So I don't think it's backwards. It makes rational sense that if there's a larger pollutant source, you're going to want higher airflow and higher capture efficiency.
01:13:43:10 - 01:13:43:28
Mike Collignon: Yeah. He was.
01:13:44:05 - 01:13:44:23
Mike Collignon: He was.
01:13:44:24 - 01:13:53:25
Mike Collignon: I think the CFM numbers go up as the floor area decreases.
01:13:53:27 - 01:14:02:14
Eric Werling: Oh, I see the question. Okay. That's a different question than what I just answered. Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:02:16 - 01:14:09:04
Eric Werling: And yeah, I don't know the answer to that. I'm gonna have to go ask the.
01:14:09:06 - 01:14:16:28
Sam Rashkin: Makes sense, because the concentrations getting higher in smaller residences. So you probably want to pull out more faster.
01:14:17:05 - 01:14:39:01
Eric Werling: Yeah, it does make sense from that regard. But there's it's a complicated dynamic. So it's a good question I mean I think yeah I mean I think Sam's answer is probably right because it's a smaller space. So you need a higher airflow in order to remove the the concentration.
01:14:39:03 - 01:14:41:28
Mike Collignon: Sure.
01:14:42:01 - 01:14:54:03
Sam Rashkin: I chime in with actually time to short. I want to get to a few questions that I think are important for Actionable.
01:14:54:05 - 01:14:56:16
Eric Werling: Joe in my screen or should I?
01:14:56:18 - 01:15:01:10
Sam Rashkin: Yeah, sure. You get rid of it. Yeah.
01:15:01:12 - 01:15:31:06
Sam Rashkin: And so we share my screen just I just want to ask you a question because I think people listening can take action based on the answers to these. Eric I think it's really important, the advent of really important work from Dewey on working to develop a capture efficiency standard and start working with industry. So to what extent can you tell the listeners that the manufacturers use to capture efficiency label, and they can start looking for it now?
01:15:31:09 - 01:15:40:20
Sam Rashkin: And if not now, when would you think the label be more prevalent so that we can actually use that making our purchase decision?
01:15:40:23 - 01:16:14:11
Eric Werling: Yeah, it's a it's a great question and I don't know the exact dates, Sam, but I know that the manufacturers have all been planning for this capture efficiency standard since it made its way through the ACM process, keeping in mind that there's several layers of standards that affect this. So the ACM standard was a standard for testing the capture efficiency of the arrangement in a laboratory environment so that it can be consistently tested across manufacturers.
01:16:14:12 - 01:16:41:17
Eric Werling: Right. But that doesn't all that does is tell you that the capture efficiency number for that range for it in a in a rated condition is X. It doesn't tell you what to specify. So then you need some kind of a, you know, a certification process. And Hrvy, the home ventilating institute, is the one that's being used for the capture efficiency metric.
01:16:41:20 - 01:17:17:10
Eric Werling: And what I don't know, but I could find out is when capture efficiency will be listed on products through the by the certification process. Those each of these things, as you can imagine, takes a couple of years. We finished the team standard heavies adopted the the certification. What I don't know is whether or not they're currently listing products with capture efficiency, and how many products have a capture efficiency listed.
01:17:17:13 - 01:17:22:01
Eric Werling: It's it's any day now I think, but I don't know exactly when or how.
01:17:22:01 - 01:17:22:27
Mike Collignon: Many many.
01:17:22:29 - 01:17:34:25
Sam Rashkin: Is pretty soon. Okay. And so when I see advertisements for some nature that say I capture efficiency, it's just a UN validated.
01:17:34:29 - 01:17:35:24
Mike Collignon: Unspecified right.
01:17:35:25 - 01:17:44:13
Eric Werling: So so we should be in the very near future asking where's your HPI label, your certification?
01:17:44:16 - 01:18:26:04
Sam Rashkin: Okay. My next question is in the same vein. I think a lot of people are very interested in these monitors or in the possibility that their home buyers or health conscious will start acquiring these monitors. Yet the accuracy reliability is way down from where it eventually needs to be. So again, any forecasts, when we think some of these monitors that we can get on our smartphones or actually displays in our home, what do we think they'll have some sort of, again, be actionable, be useful, be something we can use to monitor to some degree of the reasonable health performance of the home.
01:18:26:10 - 01:18:31:14
Sam Rashkin: Are we getting within a few years, five years? Let me think is a good forecast.
01:18:31:17 - 01:18:53:24
Eric Werling: I think that the answer to that is today. Those can be useful for limited applications, and we have to do it smart. They will get better and better over time. And the way to ensure that we understand whether or not they're better is to look out for standards for those things. Unfortunately, standards take a long time to develop, so.
01:18:53:27 - 01:18:56:25
Sam Rashkin: Anything works.
01:18:56:28 - 01:19:20:10
Eric Werling: I would have to check in with my LBL buddies to find out whether or not there's anything in the works. They've they've tested the equipment. They know what the weaknesses are. They they are generally positive about the the they're kind of at a level where, you know, up until recently, low cost monitors were considered by researchers to be crap, basically.
01:19:20:17 - 01:19:20:27
Mike Collignon: Right.
01:19:21:04 - 01:19:46:14
Eric Werling: And they're not feeling them as crap anymore. They're viewing them as as situationally. They can be very useful. And but you but you got to know. You got to know how to use them, etc.. So what I think is going to happen, this is just putting on my hat what what I think is going to happen, Sam, is, is that, they're on the market already.
01:19:46:17 - 01:20:13:22
Eric Werling: People are using them and. Right. That's that's the problem. But it's not a problem that builders have any control over. So what what I think we need to do is start to engage with the customers, get smart about what these devices are good for and aren't good for right now. The manufacturers of those things are going to want to participate in that so they can improve the quality of their devices.
01:20:13:24 - 01:20:52:05
Eric Werling: And then you're going to have to use fine print. So my my recommendation is develop your fine print after you get smart about what those things can and can't do, and start the conversation with your customers to to let them know that these things are perfectly accurate. But we want to be in partnership. If you're interested in your indoor air quality, we're committed to helping you manage it as best as you can, and we'll we'll figure out how to to help you with education about what you can do and can't do.
01:20:52:05 - 01:20:56:18
Eric Werling: And the fine print has to be there because you've got to protect your legal liability.
01:20:56:21 - 01:21:04:05
Sam Rashkin: Yeah, that's why I asked the question. I don't want builders to be afraid of indoor air quality, because people are running around trying to murder it.
01:21:04:07 - 01:21:27:04
Eric Werling: Yeah. No, I mean, it's it's it's like the question came up in a conversation, you know, I had recently of of why in the world would a builder want to give a consumer a low cost monitor when it might tell them there's, there's, you know, it might have a false positive until, you know, and then they're going to get lots of complaints, etc..
01:21:27:09 - 01:21:36:03
Eric Werling: And my my answer to that after thought about it for a while is, you know what, you might not be able to avoid those calls because people are going to buy them anyway right.
01:21:36:05 - 01:21:36:18
Sam Rashkin: Ahead of it.
01:21:36:19 - 01:21:39:17
Eric Werling: And probably exactly.
01:21:39:22 - 01:21:51:27
Sam Rashkin: I will mention, though, I remember Brett Singer saying the bot was a pretty good low cost option if you had to pick the sensors. That seemed to be the one that made you the I've.
01:21:51:29 - 01:22:11:04
Eric Werling: I've heard him say things about food that weren't perfect, so I would be reluctant to support that. On the other hand, you know, since I'm a government official, you know.
01:22:11:06 - 01:22:40:03
Eric Werling: I, you know, I, I can't name a brand. Even if I had a choice, I wouldn't mind filling around with a bot and see how how it works in my home and see if it's helpful or their advice, or the Gray wolf or any of these other ones that are out there. I think they're probably all okay, but but just like any measurement device, if you don't calibrate it, it can be wrong.
01:22:40:04 - 01:22:40:27
Eric Werling: Right.
01:22:41:04 - 01:23:05:01
Sam Rashkin: Well, I used to be a government official, and since I'm not, I wanted to share Brett's guidance. But to some extent, even some caveats. Two more quick questions, because I don't want to lose you on a couple of things. One, that really concerns me, where your pictures show in the vents for the intakes and those locations were egregious because no way to measure, to maintain.
01:23:05:02 - 01:23:32:21
Sam Rashkin: And so we know that the events that's going to get clogged with the with hornet's nest, whatever. It's unavoidable. Every event in my house I check every year. And it's amazing what you find in terms of need for maintenance. So since we know the ventilation system will affecting us, will shut down at the intakes are clogged for whatever reasons, is there any move to in Air Plus or other programs?
01:23:32:21 - 01:23:51:18
Sam Rashkin: I know they are. The distance apart intakes and exhaust fence can't be within proximity, but is also there a requirement either now or in the future, to make sure location is one that can be maintained without significant effort?
01:23:51:20 - 01:24:08:11
Eric Werling: Good question Sam. There are there is a provision for maintainability of ventilation systems. But I don't think the inlets or outlets.
01:24:08:14 - 01:24:09:14
Mike Collignon: Are.
01:24:09:16 - 01:24:27:24
Eric Werling: Specifically mentioned. I think it needs to be in a standard and it needs to be in the installation instructions for the fan, etc.. So you raise a great point. That's one of those things where it.
01:24:27:26 - 01:24:59:12
Eric Werling: I'm sure it's been proposed. Why it's not in the standard right now. I'm not sure. Would would require some digging around, would require some advocacy. I mean, the more we find these problems, the more likely they're going to become part of the standard. And and that's one of the reasons why it's an interesting sort of thing. It's one of the reasons why I'm a big proponent of making low cost measurement more common.
01:24:59:12 - 01:25:30:03
Eric Werling: Because if you have an onboard flow sensor that just sends a little warning that says, hey, it's not it's lower than it was when you installed it, then then you or whoever does your maintenance knows you got to go check it. And and that's going to lead to more awareness about those problems, which then I would hope would, you know, lead to better standards about, you know, how to avoid those problems more regularly.
01:25:30:03 - 01:25:45:05
Eric Werling: But you're right, it's a glaring problem right now in the, in the and in the standards. We don't have the technology or the standards to support reliable preventative maintenance.
01:25:45:07 - 01:26:14:19
Sam Rashkin: The last question I have is, again, the builders can do a great job and integrate all these wonderful best practices for equality, but there's a whole plethora of bad behavior. The occupants can start taking on one side on that negates or creates issues. So is there some sort of guidance document we either can think of preparing for builders to hand over to homeowners how to maintain a healthy house.
01:26:14:23 - 01:26:39:15
Sam Rashkin: It could be simple things like avoiding furniture with really nasty fire retardants, good policies like not wearing shoes that home, vacuuming carpets at least once a league, whatever it may be, changing filters or cleaning gutters. It's all the usual things that will exacerbate the good things we do that you laid out today. But the owner is going to be the culprit if they don't.
01:26:39:16 - 01:26:41:10
Mike Collignon: Right. Yeah. So?
01:26:41:11 - 01:27:08:08
Eric Werling: So what? What that makes me think about is that surely all of those recommendations are written down in various places. And I would first go to my buddies at EPA in the Indoor Environment division, Nick Hurst, and say, hey, Nick, what what have we got in the in the way of guidance? That could be that a builder could just slap into their homeowners manual.
01:27:08:09 - 01:27:39:19
Eric Werling: Right. And and that would be the, the best way to go because that's, that's their that's their mission for indoor air plus is to help because they know that indoor air plus by itself it's it's specifications for the home, but it stops at turning over the keys to the homeowner. So I would think that they'd have a list of all the things that consumers or homeowners can do with their homes.
01:27:39:19 - 01:27:46:17
Eric Werling: I just don't know if they have have put it all into one place. So it would be a really good idea to bug them for it.
01:27:46:24 - 01:28:07:22
Sam Rashkin: Yeah, that would be great. And I just, I just I just couldn't take this chance to just put that in your brain for now. Mike, we're hitting one. We're hitting 330. So I'm going to let you pull a wrap on today's session. We've abused Eric even beyond what I thought we would do. So I want to let him go.
01:28:07:24 - 01:28:10:23
Sam Rashkin: I didn't want to squeeze some questions. And you know me well.
01:28:10:23 - 01:28:37:08
Eric Werling: Thanks for having me. Sam and Mike. And I really appreciated the opportunity to, you know, to chat with you guys. I still in parting, I still feel frustrated talking to a screen. I mean, I would much rather talk to you all directly and hear your questions directly, but I guess this is where we are today, right?
01:28:37:10 - 01:28:39:25
Sam Rashkin: I've been a couple of years. Give it a chance.
01:28:39:27 - 01:28:42:14
Mike Collignon: Yeah.
01:28:42:16 - 01:29:07:06
Mike Collignon: Well, I know we are at the end of your time, Eric, so we really do appreciate you coming over here and talking to us. And for all of us being able to just listen in on your conversation here at the end, really appreciate it. Thank you also to our audience for attending today, asking wonderful questions. And thank you to Mitsubishi Electric, Westlake Royal Building Products and Schneider Electric for the generous sponsorship of the housing 2.0 program.
01:29:07:07 - 01:29:26:13
Mike Collignon: Now, if you enjoyed today's webinar and why wouldn't you? And you'd like to learn more about the housing 2.0 strategies, you can register now for the second workshop series. That's six part series is going to begin on Thursday, May 26th at 12 p.m. Eastern Time. And yeah, there's that book.
01:29:26:15 - 01:29:31:08
Mike Collignon: That's all. I'm going to do.
01:29:31:10 - 01:29:32:15
Mike Collignon: All you got to do.
01:29:32:15 - 01:29:39:10
Mike Collignon: Is go to Green Builder Media, Comcast two.
01:29:39:12 - 01:29:42:02
Mike Collignon: And now Sam O's Erika check for $20.
01:29:42:02 - 01:29:46:12
Mike Collignon: Before that starts. So.
01:29:46:14 - 01:30:05:13
Mike Collignon: Right after I should say that that workshop series starts up. We're going to be back here again on June 8th at 2 p.m. eastern time for another webinar. In our Thought Leader series, we're going to be joined by Alan Lang from Ria to talk more about the future of comfort in our homes. So thank you once again for joining us.
01:30:05:14 - 01:30:08:10
Mike Collignon: Until next time, take care everyone.
01:30:08:12 - 01:30:08:29
Sam Rashkin: Thank you so much.