The Case for Passive Survivability

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Sara Gutterman: Hello and welcome to The Valuation Metric, a podcast about the risks, rewards, roadblocks and revelations reshaping the way that we measure worth. I'm your host, Sara Gutterman, CEO of Green Builder Media, North America's leading media company focused on green building and sustainable living. For most of human history, a building had one essential job keep you alive through whatever nature and the sky and the weather was doing.

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Sara Gutterman: Shelter. Men, survival. The walls, the orientation, the mass, the openings. These were the difference between a tolerable night and a lethal one. A building that couldn't hold its own simply wasn't shelter. And then we got cheap energy and we forgot. We started building structures that only work when everything else works. When the grid is up, when the compressor is running, when the fuel is flowing, when the air outside is clean enough.

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Sara Gutterman: We called that comfort, but it was something more fragile than comfort. It was dependency dressed up as progress, a building on life support, so to speak. Most of the time we don't notice. But then the smoke rolls in from a fire 100 miles away, or a thousand miles away, or the grid goes dark in a heat dome, or the temperature climbs past the point where we can keep our cooling system up and running, and then our homes reveal what they actually are, whether it's a machine that protects us or a box that fails the moment that inputs disappear.

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Sara Gutterman: My guest today has spent her career on the unglamorous, rigorous question underneath all of this. She is a building engineer by training, and she once wrote a thesis asking one of the most honest questions in our entire industry what does a building actually cost the grid? Not what does it cost to build, but what does it go to?

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Sara Gutterman: The system that it draws from to the people inside of it, to the day everything fails? Lisa White is the co-executive director of the organization, certifying the majority of passive building projects in North America. She has trained more than 800 professionals, reviewed more than 500 project teams, and helped write the specific climate standards that decide what high performance actually means in a given place.

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Sara Gutterman: Lisa, welcome to the valuation metric.

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Lisa White: Thank you. Very excited to be here.

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Sara Gutterman: Wonderful. We're delighted to have you. I want to start with the question that you asked in your thesis. What does a building actually cost the grid? Because I think it reframes everything. The question treats a building not as an isolated object, but as a member of a common, so to speak, drawing from and burdening a share system. Most of us were taught to think of a home or a building as a thing that you own and operate.

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Sara Gutterman: What changed in how you see a home or a building? Once you start seeing it as a node in a system rather than an island?

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Lisa White: Yeah, yeah. So it was really eye opening. So I actually was framing around thinking about what net zero, net zero building actually cost the grid. And the way that you think about net metering and the fact that the occupant of that building then owed nothing for electricity if it out over the course of the year. And as I started learning about the the supply side of the equation, power generation, energy markets and what it actually cost to deliver a kilowatt hour to a building or kilowatt, and it it was really eye opening and it was really like, is this fair?

00:03:53:00 - 00:04:17:18
Lisa White: So I, you know, I've worked in high performance building and what this really did is that it shed light on the other end of the equation, like the other end, the supply side of the equation. And what they're solving for on that supply side was this aggregate of all of the buildings. So when you kind of extend that boundary of what you're solving for into a greater boundary, it brings new solutions.

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Lisa White: And it it sheds so much more light on the value of actually what we were doing it for us, and the lowering of the peak demand that's required on the grid, which really that's what infrastructure size based on. And we're not talking like a heat pump infrastructure size. We're talking like power generation at a massive scale. And when you can reduce load in one building or all of them, let's say cut in half, now we need like half of the the power generation, right.

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Lisa White: Like our massive power plants can be shaped so valued that the lower peak loads and then started to think about why we're not considering the time of the time value of energy more than we do. We talk about really we talk about just total energy. We rarely talk about where it comes from or the impact of that, or even that.

00:05:09:02 - 00:05:37:19
Lisa White: The difference in cost between using electricity in the morning versus in the evening versus in the afternoon. So aggregating all of that and thinking about what we have to do to supply energy to that aggregation and how we're trying to reduce that demand, but also we're trying to clean up that supply. And it just it honestly brought more questions than answers, but it it created a whole new perspective from for me.

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Sara Gutterman: Talk a little bit more about that time value of energy. Because as you say, it is so important to energy management and then kind of tie it into demands that energy management systems that are available today to help us actually implement that.

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Lisa White: Yeah. So essentially. Oh, gosh. So essentially power generation and what is supplying electricity to a building varies based on the time of day based on the aggregate demand on a system. So like the cheapest resources are dispatch first. And so when there's very little strain on the grid electricity is usually cheap. But doesn't mean it's like clean, it just means it's usually cheaper.

00:06:19:14 - 00:06:44:21
Lisa White: And then as more and more demand comes onto the grid, it gets more and more expensive because you have to call upon more and more expensive resources to meet that demand. So when the highest demand is on the grid, or when it's the most strained, it costs the most to deliver that next kilowatt hour of electricity. So if you can save energy at that time, you're actually saving the most cost and typically also the most in terms of emissions.

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Lisa White: And rarely we think about it that way. We usually just smooth things out over the course of a year. We're just like, oh, we save 25% annually, but there's so much more nuanced to it. Well, a building that could save 25% annually could save 50% on cost. Zero could actually cost more, depending on when that energy is being is.

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Lisa White: So the demand side management is really typically looking at the cost of electricity supply or looking at periods that they call like peak and shifting energy use away from times where it's on peak. So shifting from the more expensive times to the less expensive ties.

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Lisa White: Sometimes this this can be as like abrupt as turning the power off. We grew up with that. I remember there was like, you sign up for a program and it's just going to turn your power off from 4 to 6 p.m. or whatever it may be on a hot day. And I had no idea what that meant at the time or why that was happening.

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Lisa White: But it's because the grid was really strained because of air conditioning. So there's, you know, it goes all the way back to that to really complicated or more complicated systems that can communicate with with real time pricing and respond and adjust loads accordingly. Typically that could be water heating, which is really easy to kind of make variable that you don't need your water heater, you need the output of the water heater to be consistent.

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Lisa White: Right. You always want hot water, but you don't really care when it's heating that as long as you can still have hot water when you want it. So that one's really it's a good, easy resource. It's like a thermal energy storage system that can respond to that availability. But there's also setbacks for thermostats and things that can happen automatically.

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Lisa White: There's demand based systems within other large appliances like washers, dryers, dishwashers again like run that when when costs are loved. So we don't think about as demand. We just say when it's cheapest to do this.

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Sara Gutterman: Gotcha. Lisa, there's a word at the center of your work that some people might find quietly radical, and that word is passive. We tend to think of passive as lesser. The active thing is the impressive thing, but passive buildings and homes are kind of a philosophical stance. Do less, depend less. Build something that performs without that constant intervention.

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Sara Gutterman: So is passive in your mind. Is that actually the right word for something that is actually a very demanding discipline? And what does it give up? What does it ask us to give up in exchange for that independence?

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Lisa White: Yeah, it's a it's an interesting question. I think it is the right word because we're passively conserving energy. So you're putting a little more in up front, and then you're basically creating the absence of something or the absence of energy demand down the road. But it also brings all of these other elements that comfort and help along with it.

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Lisa White: So yeah, I think it I think it is the right word and you're not giving up anything. So I think it does. Probably so the first time someone hears this term, you think it's like a sweater campaign, right? It's like, turn your meat down and wear your sweater. And it's like, yeah, that'll help. That's not what this is about at all.

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Lisa White: It's almost like getting the right sweater for your building so that you don't have to get that that heat or that cooling. I mean, sweater coat, whatever. Enclosure protection. So you're not you're not giving anything up. And I think that's maybe the only angle that passive.

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Lisa White: Brings. The. That's like a negative. Vidar can can be seen that way, but it's absolutely not that at all. It's like doing something that it's like a set it and forget it, which is actually really valuable and makes everything else around it simpler to solve. Like all of the systems that have to solve for like that remaining load.

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Sara Gutterman: Yeah. So I am sitting in the middle of millions of acres of national forest in southwestern Colorado near Telluride, and there are multiple fires burning well throughout the entire country, throughout Canada, throughout the entire world. Right. Extreme heat plaguing our cities and creating heat domes. So let's talk specifically about, you know, extreme heat and wildfire, which I know is a main area of focus for you.

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Sara Gutterman: When smoke arrives, an ordinary house just breathes it in and you know, the same leaks that waste energy in the winter pull in that hazardous air in the summer, whereas a passive home treats the envelope and ventilation as a deliberate boundary between the outside air and the inside air. So walk us through what is physically different about how a passive home and building handles, say, wildfire smoke, and why that boundary is something most homes simply don't have.

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Lisa White: Yeah, so passive building focuses on making the building enclosure airtight first and foremost. So that's one major difference from conventional construction is there's this like hyper focus on making sure everything's connected nicely in that building enclosure. And that's for really the primary reason of durability, because air moving through an enclosure and militia coming with it, and that can lead to bad health.

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Lisa White: It can lead to mold growth or bad things happening in your building enclosure. But the other thing it does is that it steals that that unintentional air coming in from the outside. We don't call it fresh air anymore because it's not fresh outdoor air coming in from outside. And you then place these deliberate openings and the enclosure and plan for how much of it comes in, where you want to put it in your building, and you filter all of that prior to it entering your building.

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Lisa White: So now with wildfire smoke, typically have to open your window in a conventional building, or you're still going to turn on your bath exhaust fan and that's going to suck air. You know, the depressurization is going to suck in the outside air, whether you want it to or not, and bring in the air as it is. But with these intentional openings for ventilation and continuous outdoor air supply with filtration, you're now bringing in cleaner filtered air, and you have control essentially over there that's coming into the building and conventional buildings.

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Lisa White: There's just no I guess it's kind of like there's no code or there are code requirements for air tightness, but they're not they're not strict. And the balanced ventilation is not is not mandated in most places. So let's say you want.

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Sara Gutterman: To do it.

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Sara Gutterman: To the concept of passive survivability. So the idea that a home or a building should keep you safe even when the power goes out, and that it should buy you days, not minutes or hours. And, you know, that's really a profound reframing of how we think about our homes and structures here in the US. So, you know, what is the difference, again, between kind of a code built house versus a passive house in terms of just general survivability?

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Sara Gutterman: And why isn't that like a headline number that we designed to.

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Lisa White: Yeah. So we typically designed to what's required. Most people designed to the minimum what's required. And that's energy codes. Energy codes use the simple payback system to justify upgrades. So if it doesn't pay back in dollars it's not going in a code. Right. So passive buildings, it depends on where you are and when the outage is in terms of like how much longer than conventional construction.

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Lisa White: But we're talking to to ten times longer maintaining a bit of both conditions inside. So it's really like if you think about a thermos or a yeti holding cold, cold or warm drink, coffee cooler, anything like that, the building enclosure is just going to maintain that interior condition longer because it's more thoughtful in the design. It's just a better, a better enclosure.

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Lisa White: I think I can.

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Sara Gutterman: Yeah. Thank you. So let's address the financial aspect of say, kind of a passive house, because I think that sometimes the economic objections actually stop. They weren't progress and innovation. And I like to say that, you know, cheap up front typically means expensive forever. And that the first cost metric is really just an accounting illusion. Because when we do the honest accounting, including energy and health and resilience, you know, full cost is is so much more important.

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Sara Gutterman: And I think a passive house more appropriately addresses full cost and full value, but not necessarily upfront costs. So where do passive homes honestly stand in that kind of financial equation. And what is that accounting. You know, again not just first class but full cost accounting conversation look like yeah.

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Lisa White: So yeah I better products typically do cost more. And I think as an industry, as a human we can understand that. So it's not surprising, but it's not really the materials. It's part of its materials. But a lot of it is a learning curve up front for a design team. So we're trying to shift an industry in a way of doing things that has so much inertia behind it and so much for like, let's get more done.

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Lisa White: You know, it's all about efficiency and people not wanting to change the way they're doing things. But once teams learn how to do this, people are claiming to deliver buildings that are one 2% additional upfront costs from what they typically do. And the question gets complicated because what they typically do varies based on that team, the local code, and how people are already building.

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Lisa White: So you could see people report cost up to ten, 20% more. But it's like relative to what? Like what energy code are we talking about? Or did you even follow an energy code? And there's also prioritization of things that go in the building. Right. So are you prioritizing things that impact performance or things that impact, you know, finishes and things.

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Lisa White: So yeah, it costs more and more seeing everything from one 2%, maybe up to 5% for affordable multifamily, where we have the most actual measured cost data from third party programs that are financially supporting this and require all of that data. We don't always get cost data, so we're kind of lucky when we do or, you know, single family pilot projects, some might say, is 20% more expensive upfront.

00:18:03:14 - 00:18:34:00
Lisa White: But we're always getting we're still reporting on upfront costs because that's what people look at. So the whole value of the building, the lower operational costs, not just year one but year 80, you know, as the building performance decays over time, a building that starts with lower, lower energy needs has a tighter band of projected energy use versus one that starts its construction.

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Lisa White: Then it's like it could diverge quite a bit in terms of how much it actually needs 50 years down the road. And so the first cost metric is an illusion. And obviously it doesn't take into account like resilience like we talked about. It doesn't take into account health, it doesn't take into account comfort. And I think that's because a lot of these things can't be valued by the dollar.

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Lisa White: We don't have a mechanism, really, except for looking at the cost of the health care industry. We don't have a mechanism for looking at that. Comfort is very unquantifiable. You just know when you're not comfortable, right. So it's not connected to dollars. So we use dollars because we can stack them up and everyone kind of has a feel for it.

00:19:19:18 - 00:19:46:22
Lisa White: But I would say arguably we we have fierce and passive buildings still can't do a whole value accounting, but we can start to at least shed light on the things that these buildings can deliver and how those are benefits beyond just energy and cost, and hope that people start to understand and start to feel that a building can do that for you, but still not in dollars.

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Sara Gutterman: One of the things that I find very compelling about this is the insistence that performance performance has to be tailored to climate and place, and you help develop those climate specific standards. Tell us a little bit about what you learned in that process. As you reviewed hundreds of projects and the data that they actually produce from people living in homes.

00:20:13:13 - 00:20:33:11
Sara Gutterman: And you know how. What talk just a little bit about, again, how you developed a program that understands that a solution for Phoenix is going to be different than a solution in Minneapolis or upstate New York, right?

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Lisa White: So when thinking about passive building, it's like it's inherently related to climate, because you're thinking about that separation between the inside and outside, like keeping the inside in, keeping the outside out, except when you want it in. So if you were to think about putting on a coat, you'd have to know where you were before you picked your coat.

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Lisa White: Right? So like, it's like you can't really disconnect the two.

00:21:02:16 - 00:21:25:07
Lisa White: In terms of like where the right investment is. It depends on these other metrics like resilience, like comfort. What's going to keep you comfortable in terms of a window? Performance in Chicago is different than Miami. So some of the elements of the standard have to be tuned to ensure the same outcome. And cost is, of course, a piece of it.

00:21:25:11 - 00:21:54:04
Lisa White: So we looked at cost, but it's a little bit bigger. Reframing upfront cost and operational cost over time, over the lifetime of the building. And what we're trying to do is minimize that. And some measures are subject to cost, like how much insulation you put in, what level of thermal performance you have in the windows. That type of thing was subject to cost and takes into account again up front and how to how much it cost, operate the building over time.

00:21:54:04 - 00:22:03:11
Lisa White: So it is also tied to the cost of electricity that's delivered. So.

00:22:03:13 - 00:22:37:10
Lisa White: I think it's if you live in the US, you understand that there's wildly different climates. So if you told everyone to build the exact same wall system, exact same roof, same floor, and try to have the exact same heating bill in Chicago as Miami, you know that that would be absurd. And codes are climate specific, right? So it just goes along with with that in terms of adapting what makes sense financially and in terms of outcomes for that climate.

00:22:37:11 - 00:23:02:10
Sara Gutterman: Yeah. I'm curious you again, you've reviewed, you know, hundreds of projects in terms of modeling and then actual real performance. And I'm sure there's a gap between those two. What have you learned about that gap? You know, and where's the big where are the biggest differences between modeling versus how homes and buildings actually perform over time and how people actually live in them?

00:23:02:12 - 00:23:27:00
Lisa White: Yeah. So we actually we get some monitor data, but we don't require it. So we're lucky. We consider ourselves lucky when we do get it. So I should just start with that because we don't end. But when we do, it can be all over the map and it's because we're certifying buildings and not occupants. So if you were to look at a conventional building, performance is all over the map.

00:23:27:00 - 00:23:48:19
Lisa White: The one thing I will say about passive building is you're reducing kind of, again, like that band of toxic bull space conditioning use when someone might set their thermostat to 85 in the winter and, you know, 60 in the summer. It takes less energy to maintain that when you have a good enclosure, then it would in conventional construction.

00:23:48:19 - 00:24:13:20
Lisa White: So there is less, I'd say, variability in heating cooling loads, and you'd see it in conventional construction. But other systems, hot water is a big one. Where we are seeing we're seeing a gap between what you model and how people actually use hot water. But again, it some some buildings are like spot on, some use less than was predicted.

00:24:13:21 - 00:24:21:04
Lisa White: But typically typically they're coming in higher than predicted. Not much but higher.

00:24:21:06 - 00:24:34:22
Sara Gutterman: Yeah. What are you seeing the biggest growth in terms of the program and certification geographically as well as, you know, kind of who is grabbing on and really implementing it.

00:24:35:00 - 00:25:04:15
Lisa White: Geographically, hands down the northeast of the US, it is a code requirement for multi-family buildings in Massachusetts, the state of Massachusetts. So, you know, it's the stick, not the carrot. And now it's it's booming out there. And then I think other states near it have been, you know, hustling along for a while. New York. Specifically Pennsylvania, a lot of the northeast states are not far behind with that.

00:25:04:17 - 00:25:30:13
Lisa White: So a lot in Massachusetts multifamily market and a lot in the northwest as well. And then typology wise, it's a lot of multifamily affordable housing developers, which is actually the complete opposite end of the spectrum. When I started at where it was a lot of kind of niche single family homes, kind of like tree hugger typology, where people really energy conscious and really care.

00:25:30:13 - 00:25:53:16
Lisa White: And these one offs to this kind of large scale affordable housing. And I think a lot of that is coming from the value of this building and the people that are choosing to develop these buildings for affordable housing also own the building and are responsible for some of the operational costs, if not all of it, for the life of the building.

00:25:53:16 - 00:26:22:11
Lisa White: So they can actually zoom out and take a bigger picture, look at the value. They're also responsible for maintenance and comfort complaints and, you know, system improvements over time. So if they can reduce system sizes, reduce maintenance calls, make the occupants happier. That's the upfront investment goes a lot further for those types of developers and owners versus a build to to sell like a market rate.

00:26:22:15 - 00:26:48:07
Sara Gutterman: Sure. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Obviously where code requires this. But then also, you know, I'm glad to hear that the numbers are penciling out, say, in the Pacific Northwest, especially for building owners. Now, kind of a two layered question. First, are you. Where do you see this becoming code, not just in multifamily but in single family.

00:26:48:07 - 00:27:03:00
Sara Gutterman: Where is that pending? And then are you also seeing incentives and rebates for this level of performance or for certification specifically in single and or multifamily?

00:27:03:01 - 00:27:36:13
Lisa White: Yeah. So with the single family code, I would say I don't know if it will happen in the same way that it happened in multifamily, where like the standards are referenced directly, but the ICC codes are like slowly inching closer and they're not stepping back. They're slowly inching closer to what we're requiring. I, I don't have a guess as to where it would be next in single family, unless it was Massachusetts or somewhere that's already kind of taken us on for larger scale projects.

00:27:36:15 - 00:28:14:18
Lisa White: It's a more sensitive industry, I think, because of homebuilders and it there's just a larger network and the the cost is hitting more individuals pockets than like larger developments. That makes sense harder organizations. So I'm not sure on that one. Sorry. Part two. You had a yeah rebates incentives. So I think again, a lot of the reasons happening in multifamily is through different funding mechanisms for that.

00:28:14:20 - 00:29:00:12
Lisa White: There are rebates and incentives for single family. They're smaller. Some of them happen through the IRA. Some of them have been pulled back with recent changes in the government. But there are there are incentives such as where you're where you're living. There's actually rebuilding incentives out in Colorado for up to $40,000 per single family home. If you rebuild to the fetus standard for those affected by the Marshall wildfires a few years ago, or in different utility programs, I'd say are stepping up to provide incentives for single family homes on the local scale for those that are within their network, because they see the value of this building as a grid asset, as we kind of

00:29:00:13 - 00:29:26:00
Lisa White: talked about in the beginning. So once that that value extends beyond just the pocket of the person developing it and others can see it, then their start to it starting to incentivize it. And one more thing on the incentives is we build our standards upon like the Department of Energy's programs. So Energy Star, you know, it's called the Efficient New homes.

00:29:26:05 - 00:29:46:06
Lisa White: And then on top of that and the incentives kind of stack with those as well. And there's some programs that are recognized, the Doe programs and give you incentives which inherently phase projects get. So there's a lot of them, but it can be a complicated landscape.

00:29:46:08 - 00:30:11:07
Sara Gutterman: And yeah. All right. I've got a couple closing questions that I asked all of my guests on the valuation metric. First, I think, as you know, the whole thesis behind this podcast is that we're valuing building homes and buildings the wrong way. Price per square foot is an antiquated metric that just tells us what a home cost and today, and how big it is.

00:30:11:08 - 00:30:32:10
Sara Gutterman: Whereas value per square foot looks at a much more comprehensive set of elements and aspects, including energy and water and health and wellness, resiliency, decarbonization, equity and investment and community. But when you hear the term value per square foot, what does it mean to you?

00:30:32:12 - 00:30:44:01
Lisa White: It's a tough one because I think value is a really challenging word. People have different values and it's all sort of relative. So.

00:30:44:03 - 00:31:20:19
Lisa White: It's a hard one to connect to, like, because value, like you said, extends far beyond cost and something can be valuable to you, but not expensive, and something can be expensive and not valuable. So I guess I it definitely resonates as something that's beyond cost. And I think the metric is is a good one to chase after. But I think it's a really challenging thing to encapsulate because there isn't that there's not apples to apples to add together for value.

00:31:20:23 - 00:31:38:07
Lisa White: And what you means to someone doesn't necessarily mean someone else thinks of it in the same way. So, but it's really like what it gives. What does the building give you? What does it give you back to me?

00:31:38:09 - 00:31:51:16
Sara Gutterman: And finally, what's one specific thing that our listeners, whether they're business leaders, builders, consumers can do today that would fundamentally change how they think about value?

00:31:51:18 - 00:32:17:08
Lisa White: Yeah, I mean, I think we have come back to this a few times in this conversation, but like zoom out and think of things more as a system rather than the individual elements. So a lot of the building delivery system and supplies like siloed operations. So when you're saving something or when there's a benefit, it hits this group or it's this group ranks this group and this group, but what collectively are you gaining from that?

00:32:17:08 - 00:32:42:17
Lisa White: So think about things as a as a systematic whole. And when you're zooming out, you can analyze things at that level that you can't analyze when you're just thinking about what is my input and what is my output, it's really beyond that. So when I think about buildings and passive buildings, this concept in me resonates as like a what I call the ripple effect of conservation.

00:32:42:19 - 00:33:15:04
Lisa White: So conserving energy use in buildings is just focused on energy and how that conserving at the site ripples out to conserving needs for power generation, for upgrades and distribution lines, for needs, for new renewable energy systems as we decarbonize the grid, and how powerful it is to save. If you just think about this one, it's a graphic in my mind, this one kilowatt hour you use on your your site or one kilowatt, how this like trickles into the system and what it's decreasing on the other end.

00:33:15:04 - 00:33:25:23
Lisa White: So think about concepts that can work passively, right, to reduce all of the other active stuff needed on the other side.

00:33:26:00 - 00:33:49:22
Sara Gutterman: Lisa, thank you so much for being here with me today. What really hit me from this conversation is that we spent decades measuring buildings by how they perform on an ordinary day with everything, whereas she is really measures them by how they perform on the worst day when everything has failed. And really, that turns out to be the only measurement that really tells the truth.

00:33:49:23 - 00:34:16:03
Sara Gutterman: And so, you know, we look at kind of typical American homes and they're fine until the smoke comes or the grid goes down or the heat refuses to break. And then those homes stop becoming shelter and really become a liability. And structures that kind of quietly relocate risks onto the people inside of those homes and the system around it, whereas passive buildings, in the end, refuse to do that.

00:34:16:04 - 00:34:38:08
Sara Gutterman: You know, they insist that a building should hold their homes and buildings should hold their own and and that the bill for forgetting that is no longer theoretical. It's here today, fire and storms and in, you know, heat, heat, extreme heat and power outages. And so, you know, thank you for the discussion today. Thank you also for your work.

00:34:38:08 - 00:35:02:04
Sara Gutterman: I think, you know, we're really excited to see us grow and evolve and become adopted throughout the country. So again, appreciate your time today. Thank you for joining me on the valuation metric. And to all of our listeners just reminding you that when we measure a building by how it holds on its workday, then we can actually go world.

00:35:02:06 - 00:35:02:22
Sara Gutterman: So thank you.

00:35:02:23 - 00:35:14:13
Lisa White: Yeah. Thank you Sara. It's been a really, really great conversation. And I appreciate the the insight and the angle that you're taking here and really looking at whole value. I think it's really, really important. Thank you.

00:35:14:15 - 00:35:25:20
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