Sustainability Symposium 2025 Winning the Decarbonization Debate in Hostile Territory

00:00:10:12 - 00:00:34:23
Mike Collignon: Our final session of the day is called Don't Say the D word winning the decarbonization debate in hostile territory. Oh, boy. Now, I said I might get in trouble now. Ruben. Not sure. Our presenter today is making his return appearance here at the symposium. Reuben Carlisle is a former Washington state senator and the founder and executive vice president of Earth Finance.

00:00:34:25 - 00:01:03:10
Mike Collignon: Now, Reuben is the architect of some of the most comprehensive state level climate policies in the nation, which he crafted is a really want Washington state senator or legislator and chair of the state Senate environment, Energy and Technology Committee. Now, that sweeping package included, but was not limited to cap and invest carbon pricing, clean fuel standards, 100% clean energy, environmental justice and equity.

00:01:03:13 - 00:01:29:13
Mike Collignon: Oh, I said more words. Building efficiency standards, super pollutant policies, electrification of transportation, and something near and dear to my heart, water quality and water availability. So with that, I set the stage for Reuben Carlisle to share a little bit of his insights with us and then have an interactive conversation with Sarah Gutterman. Take it away, Reuben.

00:01:29:15 - 00:01:52:03
Reuven Carlyle: Thank you very much, Mike. I appreciate it, and I am so grateful for a few moments of an opportunity to be with everybody today. I hope it's been a super productive and powerful and inspiring conference in terms of people's ability to learn some of the evidence based best practices and gain some insights. You know, the beauty of a virtual opportunity like this is, of course, scale.

00:01:52:06 - 00:02:17:14
Reuven Carlyle: The challenge is, of course, to connect. But I want to take a little bit of a risk with you for a moment. I want to open up and tell a little bit about politics, a little bit about policy, a little bit about market forces, a little bit about best practices in the world, and some insights that I gained from my time, both in the marketplace around climate sustainability work as well as my political and public policy work.

00:02:17:16 - 00:03:02:24
Reuven Carlyle: Again, I'm Reuven Carlisle, I live in Seattle with my wife, and I've got four kids, and I'm deeply passionate about the intersection, the complex world between the public and the private sector. I served from 2009 to 2023, in the Washington State Legislature, where, as Mike said, I was chair of the State Senate environment, Energy and Technology Committee. Now, Seattle is a little bit unique as the home of Amazon, Microsoft, Starbucks, Boeing, Costco, Paccar, T-Mobile and so many other companies, and virtually every one of those companies has a deep, authentic commitment to not only sustainability, but to actually embrace the letter and the spirit of much of the journey to net zero.

00:03:02:27 - 00:03:26:06
Reuven Carlyle: But we have something else. We have a public policy sense of alignment around what it takes to reach that journey as well. So I think in many ways, we in the Pacific Northwest are almost a symbolic representation of what's possible when you have market and policy alignment. My primary professional background is in the mobile and the software industry and clean energy.

00:03:26:08 - 00:03:51:04
Reuven Carlyle: And what I've learned from my entrepreneurial side and my public policy side is that when you have alignment, you have profound opportunity for change. One of the learning from this sustainability conference is that that alignment takes an understanding of the duality of language, of how to talk about sustainability, how to talk about climate action in business terms that really work.

00:03:51:06 - 00:04:25:01
Reuven Carlyle: And the answer is resiliency, long term planning, adaptation. What you learn from Will Sahni and the water panel, and what you learned about water in nature is that long term business resiliency and mitigation and adaptation is just good fiduciary, long term business planning. So yes, we live in a time of disequilibrium. Yes, we live in a time when the federal government is retreating from the the the moral integrity of this work relative to the federal government's role.

00:04:25:03 - 00:04:48:14
Reuven Carlyle: But I want to make the case to you today that state level action, local level action is the heart, the soul, the passion and the spirit of real people living real lives. Our call today is to not allow the disequilibrium of the federal government to define the framework of our work. So let me tell you a little bit about the Washington State story.

00:04:48:20 - 00:05:24:09
Reuven Carlyle: For many, many years, we had a journey toward decarbonization. We had in 2009, Governor Christine Gregoire introduced a cap and invest carbon pricing bill. It went nowhere. We had two initiatives in the next ten years relative to carbon taxes. Both of them were crushed by the voters as a carbon tax. Then we had an effort that I started in 2020, in partnership with Governor Jay Inslee and State Representative Joel Fitzgibbon, to move forward on a cap and invest carbon pricing bill.

00:05:24:13 - 00:05:51:26
Reuven Carlyle: I worked for two years writing that bill with our friends in California on their cap and trade program, our friends in Quebec on the cap and trade program. And what we did is we embraced evidence based global best practices to have a market based mechanism that could lead the decarbonization journey in the most economically efficient way possible. So example number one, we had cap and invest carbon pricing legislation that we started in 2021.

00:05:52:03 - 00:06:21:25
Reuven Carlyle: In 2022, we designed a political grand bargain for major comprehensive bills passed bill number one cap and invest. Bill number two, clean fuel standard, which is the deep decarbonization of our transportation sector, which incentivizes low carbon fuels and electrification. California, Oregon, Washington and all of Canada. Now New Mexico have that Hawaii just missed out passing it. And new Jersey is considering them.

00:06:22:01 - 00:07:03:16
Reuven Carlyle: A number of other states are also pondering them. We had deep decarbonization of the built environment, 50,000 square foot and down to 25,000ft², helping to incentivize investments and support small businesses. We also had a deep appreciation of the role of agriculture and methane capture and landfill capture, so that public policy nexus also included environmental justice and equity. And I say that because we built it in our cap and invest, we built it in our other programs, in a very authentic way, with the purpose of getting a sense of the science of the work.

00:07:03:16 - 00:07:31:09
Reuven Carlyle: And what I mean by that is particulate matter in our air quality. What I mean by that is measurements that are real and genuine, so that the community really knows what's happening. We worked with our tribal community, 29 federally recognized tribes. And then finally we included the transportation community. We passed a $17 billion transportation package that invests in electrification of our ferry system, the largest fleet in the world.

00:07:31:12 - 00:07:58:29
Reuven Carlyle: We invested in not just bike paths and other, green investments, but something much deeper. We invested in, connecting the dots so that we could really live the values of the 15 minute city and urban density in a smart way. And transit. Another example of that investment is free transit for youth. All young people in Washington state, 18 and younger, ride any bus, any train and any ferry for free.

00:07:59:04 - 00:08:20:14
Reuven Carlyle: That's all paid for by cap and invest. Dollars. Over $2 billion per biennium is being raised through that program. So those are an example of all of those bills together that we got over the line. We called it the grand bargain. My point to you is not simply to tell the Washington story and pretend like we have every answers.

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:44:16
Reuven Carlyle: But I want to say today that when there's public policy alignment and when there's market alignment, what you see is not just 100% renewable energy momentum like wind and solar, but you have an embrace of small modular nuclear. You have an embrace of geothermal. You have an embrace of interconnection and updating our grid, to allow battery storage.

00:08:44:23 - 00:09:10:28
Reuven Carlyle: All of the efforts, all of the policies that we talk about that the sustainability conference has, has lifted up. Allow us to recognize that the journey to 2050, the journey to net zero, is about business integrity. It's about making it pencil. It's about how to pay for the high value investments in terms of the capital expense and the operating expense.

00:09:11:00 - 00:09:38:24
Reuven Carlyle: Having a deep focus on the stacking of incentives at the local, state and at the federal level that still exist, allows us to change the dynamics, just as we've seen in solar panels over the last 20 years. And just as we've seen in many other markets, for all the noise and for all the anger, Texas and Oklahoma and other states are the leaders in many of the renewable energy initiatives.

00:09:38:27 - 00:10:06:21
Reuven Carlyle: And we also have to have in our learning in the in the West Coast, a deep sense of humility, of acknowledging what is not working. It is virtually impossible to build a clean energy program and project without, permitting opposition in the West Coast. It's unacceptable. We have to have the humility to embrace that challenge with a genuine, authentic approach to permitting reform.

00:10:06:24 - 00:10:35:07
Reuven Carlyle: We have to be able to build jobs and quality of life and community resiliency. The integration of water and nature and climate and sustainability with market forces allows us to partner. And that's what brings people together. I know that it's a time of disequilibrium. I appreciate the anxiety and the frustration. But evidence based global best practices are our path forward.

00:10:35:10 - 00:11:04:09
Reuven Carlyle: I encourage you to recognize that we're living in a time where it is the categorical opposite of not invented here. The embrace of evidence based global best practices from the Nordics, from Denmark and Sweden and Norway and Germany and Israel all over the world, all of these desalination and, renewable energy. Every one of these efforts are really an opportunity for scale, and that's the work of our time.

00:11:04:12 - 00:11:32:20
Reuven Carlyle: I have so much appreciation for, the genuine work that people are doing and showing up in your daily lives using your moral authority. The work of our time today is to use our moral authority to have conversations with our executive leadership, to have conversations with our stakeholders, to have conversations with community leaders about the reality of what's working and the reality of what's not.

00:11:32:22 - 00:12:02:23
Reuven Carlyle: We can build a lower carbon regenerative economy based upon sound business practice practices, based upon market forces, and based upon public policy as a partner. What does it take? One thing it takes. It takes a bi lingual approach. So what do I mean by that? The world, the subculture of politics and government and policy is its own language.

00:12:02:26 - 00:12:39:09
Reuven Carlyle: The world, the language. The subculture of the sustainability community is its own language. We have to have the duality. We have to have the connection. We have to have the interoperability so that we speak each other's language. We have to help bring an appreciation of science back to the front table. Now that's not easy in today's arena, but officials at the state level, at the regional level, at the local level, care deeply about issues like resiliency.

00:12:39:11 - 00:13:11:16
Reuven Carlyle: If you read the Climate resiliency Plan for the city of Naples, Florida, which is right on the coast, deals with hurricanes all the time. It reads like a Sierra Club annual report. If you read the 10-K reports of Coca-Cola and Pepsi, the fiduciary, documentation that they have to disclose to their investors on the public markets, it reads, when it comes to water, like a Sierra Club report.

00:13:11:18 - 00:13:57:00
Reuven Carlyle: My point in being facetious and figurative here is that good business is good. Sustainability work. Good sustainability work is good business. The duality of our language, the humility of coming together and not seeing political discourse as completely and solely destructive. To see that most states, most state legislators, are real people living real lives and connecting with them, asking for a time to have coffee, sitting down and talking about what is possible around public policy adjustments for the built environment, for renewable fuels, for electrification, and so many other initiatives.

00:13:57:02 - 00:14:27:08
Reuven Carlyle: I know that the challenge of our time feels overwhelming when science and technology are being seen as the enemy, but I guarantee you this, if you leave it all on the field for climate, that you will experience fulfillment and purpose and meaning beyond your wildest dreams. Thank you very much. And Sarah, I'm happy to connect.

00:14:27:10 - 00:15:02:13
Sara Gutterman: Fantastic, Ruben, I always love hearing from you. I love your messaging. It resonates so well with me. And, it's always such a pleasure to have an opportunity to talk with you. So, I want to start with this concept that regardless of what's happening at a federal level, we do see that most sustainability related and green building related, codes and regulations and policies do happen at a municipal or a state level, and they're enforced at that level, generally speaking, as well.

00:15:02:15 - 00:15:35:12
Sara Gutterman: And that allows for tailored approaches to address unique environmental, economic and social needs for specific reasons. So, you know, the silver bullet question is, what are you seeing right now, today in terms of effective ways for people, voters, whether they are sustainability professionals or building professionals or citizens and just consumers and homeowners, to engage with their elected officials and their communities, to impact and effect positive change.

00:15:35:12 - 00:15:40:03
Sara Gutterman: What are those most effective, methods right now?

00:15:40:03 - 00:16:09:09
Reuven Carlyle: Today, the answer is to use your moral authority. The answer is to engage. The answer is to not treat the institution of government at the local and the state level like some distant figurative monster. Call your local state representative. Call your local city council member. Ask for a coffee. Get a few, members of your, of your community together who are interested in this work.

00:16:09:12 - 00:16:37:08
Reuven Carlyle: You're exactly right that the enforcements at the local level, that the codes are at the local level. The thing about public policy and public service and my time in government that I learn is that the joy of it is to learn best practices from the community and around the world. Be a moral authority thought leader. Show up with interesting white papers, interesting background, examples of pilot projects.

00:16:37:11 - 00:17:01:01
Reuven Carlyle: I got the idea for free transit for youth at Cop 26, in Glasgow. I saw a sign on the side of the bus that said Kids Ride Free, and I texted my good friend, Senator Marco Lee, as the chair of the transportation committee with a picture. I said, Mark, look at this idea. And we. So it's just real people living real lives.

00:17:01:01 - 00:17:27:09
Reuven Carlyle: If I could share anything, Sara, with everyone, it's to bring down the walls of perception and to lean into this work. Use your credibility professionally. Use your contacts. Walk into the CEO's office. Walk into the director's office. Walk into your colleagues office and have a conversation about what a deeper sense of policy and market alignment would look like.

00:17:27:15 - 00:17:54:14
Reuven Carlyle: And in the built environment, as we know, there are incentives in supporting the development of the utilities. Helping the utilities to decarbonize the built environment gives them a win. There are incentives that change the capital expense costs, for example, of, migrating your appliances or migrating your, your efficiency of your building and small businesses and others all can access this.

00:17:54:14 - 00:17:58:24
Reuven Carlyle: But it's not easy. It just takes that level of diligence.

00:17:58:27 - 00:18:23:01
Sara Gutterman: Thanks, Ruben. So I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about, sustainability in a business context. So kind of tapping into your work at ERS finance, you have said that smart businesses are catching in on climate action. And certainly, you know, we see a lot of the tech behemoths, some of which are located in your state.

00:18:23:04 - 00:18:43:18
Sara Gutterman: They are not walking away from climate action, regardless of what's happening at a federal level here. In fact, they're doubling down. They're already reporting on scope one, two and three emissions. So what do you generally say to corporate leaders who still think that sustainability is a cost center, as opposed to a profit center or a revenue engine.

00:18:43:18 - 00:18:52:04
Sara Gutterman: And, you know, do you have them focus on risk mitigation or a bottom line expansion or the whole story?

00:18:52:07 - 00:19:30:03
Reuven Carlyle: Sarah, this is my favorite question, one of my favorite topics. So we started Earth Finance. When I left the Senate with a couple of buddies, we've grown to, more than 40 people. We've got clients in the corporate world, investors and family offices and entrepreneurs and companies that really want to scale great solutions. And the number one thing that I've learned and how I've grown and how I've changed, is to have the courage to map out the business value proposition in real ways that call the bluff on that stereotype and blow up that cliche.

00:19:30:06 - 00:20:05:11
Reuven Carlyle: It is categorically wrong, and I think those of us in the sustainability world retreat into that defensive posture to pretend like this work is only a cost center. Almost every one of these, big investments in this fundamental structural shift from a we're moving from a highly concentrated energy system of coal and natural gas, with a handful of large plants into a highly decentralized system, as we all know, with solar and with wind and with battery storage and other energy sources.

00:20:05:13 - 00:20:36:15
Reuven Carlyle: But it's really that distributed system that's the fundamental change. So what you get with rooftop solar in your warehouse, as an example, is you get resiliency. You also get less dependency upon the, the grid. You also get flexibility around charging up your commercial fleets. Things like that. It cancels. That's the super power that if I can share with anyone, you know, lean into that work.

00:20:36:15 - 00:21:01:25
Reuven Carlyle: That's been our passion and our super power. That's what we've worked on, is to help customers and clients and companies see the opportunity that if you just step back from the initial fear or perception that the capital expense is going to crush you and not see the integrated nature between the capital and the operating, and to see that it just pencils, maybe it takes four years, maybe it takes six, and maybe it takes longer.

00:21:02:02 - 00:21:14:28
Reuven Carlyle: But the value proposition of that fundamental shift to a distributed energy system works. And it pencils and we can all prove it. And we have to lean into that work together.

00:21:15:00 - 00:21:35:14
Sara Gutterman: So, let's talk about the boardroom playbook. Let's say you're walking into the boardroom of a publicly traded builder or a product manufacturer that's sustainability. Or, dare I say, the words ESG skeptic. What's your opening line to get them to take decarbonization seriously?

00:21:35:17 - 00:21:45:07
Reuven Carlyle: My opening line is, are you open to a different theory of change?

00:21:45:10 - 00:21:48:27
Sara Gutterman: All right. Now expand on that opening line. I, like.

00:21:48:27 - 00:22:26:26
Reuven Carlyle: Executives, are often frozen in a silo where, as you just said, they're just seeing this as an obligation. They are seeing this as a burden. They're seeing this as a capital expense, or they're seeing this as a regulatory obligation. They are not showing up in a way that says, are you open to a different theory of change, that the theory of change here is that this is a high quality investment, that is long term strategic business planning, that is an increasing the company's resiliency adaptation.

00:22:27:00 - 00:22:58:02
Reuven Carlyle: So let's take just for the sake of the fun, fun element of it. Let's take, a company like Starbucks in Seattle where they make coffee, right? And they brew coffee. Where does their product come from? If you walk into almost any Starbucks on the planet, they take great pride in a map of the world, of the origin of where their coffee is grown and the farmers that exist, 6 million farmers, most of them subsistence farmers, most of them women around the world.

00:22:58:02 - 00:23:27:17
Reuven Carlyle: And of course, they're all in the equatorial belt. If you overlay climate and water and nature data, planetary data, that's high value, high impact, all of a sudden it brings alive the reality of the need for long term planning. And the question, of course, for every executive, in every industry and every business is what's the strategy? What does the future look like?

00:23:27:17 - 00:23:58:04
Reuven Carlyle: And that's not just a doomsday scenario. It's an opportunity. And the what is the opportunity? For example, Sarah is driven by this concept of waste. We have this image in our mind that waste exists in a one way element. But as you always talk and as the symposium always talks, the the soul, the DNA and the heart of, of this work is circularity in every way.

00:23:58:04 - 00:24:34:25
Reuven Carlyle: Geothermal as an energy source, waste reduction, everything we talk about. So the concept of circularity is in it at its essence, about long term business innovation. It's about opportunity. So say to that executive, this is a theory of change, that this is an opportunity for our company to embrace business model innovation. And while we do that while we look 20 years down the road and ten years down the road, what we're doing is looking for new business opportunities for us that also increase adaptation, resiliency and mitigation of risk.

00:24:34:27 - 00:24:55:10
Sara Gutterman: Fantastic. So let's talk about the concept of carbon as an opportunity. You're turning carbon into cash. How do we turn in carbon from a liability, mirror harmful greenhouse gas into a transformational revenue generating opportunity, and give some examples of carbon driven profitability and action?

00:24:55:12 - 00:25:27:01
Reuven Carlyle: So carbon is not inherently evil, as we all know, right from a little bit of science. We have to smash that stereotype in that cliche. But the essence of it is to build in circularity. So there are some who say that carbon capture and removal is not realistic, or there there's some who say it's a euphemism for the oil industry to keep fracking to all of some of those concepts, that multiple things can be true.

00:25:27:01 - 00:25:59:13
Reuven Carlyle: Some of those concepts may be true, but the essence of the circularity is the power and the magic. Here, the opportunity, in theory, to capture the carbon and to embed it in concrete and embedded, environments all of a sudden opens up value. Carbon markets exist. We know that in the world, in the in the, regulated environment, in the volunteer carbon markets, there's a whole host of problems all the time, no question about it.

00:25:59:15 - 00:26:29:20
Reuven Carlyle: There's also a whole host of opportunities. And to see carbon as an investment vehicle, as an opportunity. If we think about the value proposition, not just of the Amazon and large scale forestry, but if we think about how carbon itself can embrace the circularity, that can fundamentally change the value proposition in my mind. And another examples very specifically is Woody biomass.

00:26:29:22 - 00:26:53:21
Reuven Carlyle: If you take woody biomass in the West, we have a small problem of wildfires. Think about wildfires. We need forest management practices. Sarah. Forest management practices creates woody biomass and take that waste which today gets burnt up out and, up on the mountains. Generally we take it, we take it to a beccs or other facility, and we use it as an energy source.

00:26:53:21 - 00:27:33:22
Reuven Carlyle: We capture the carbon and we're removal remove. It is that a dream? Is that realistic? Is there problems with integrity of the traceability and transparency? Absolutely. But you know what the value proposition of doing that well helps the forests. It helps the manufacturer or the energy, entity that needs the energy. And it helps on the climate relative to reducing the emissions from burning it and capturing the energy and the carbon from, the facility in our state, we have 110 large emitters that emit more than 25,000 metric tons who are covered by our cap and invest program.

00:27:33:25 - 00:28:04:17
Reuven Carlyle: They need energy. Changing their energy source is the essence of decarbonization for them. An example is British Petroleum, the largest refinery in our state or largest refinery in the West Coast. They supported our cap and invest program. They gave us millions of dollars to defend it at the ballot against repeal efforts. And as soon as it passed and got implemented, they converted their oil refinery energy source to green hydrogen, and they saved millions of dollars by doing it.

00:28:04:21 - 00:28:18:06
Reuven Carlyle: I'm not saying it's all perfect here. I'm not unappreciative of the role that the oil industry and the other players play, but I'm asking people to lean into the opportunity for business model innovation.

00:28:18:09 - 00:28:46:21
Sara Gutterman: I love it, so let's talk about reality checks and red lines. What's worse, denial or delay is outright climate denial more dangerous than passive inaction? And how do you light a fire under the companies that either say that they support sustainability but aren't moving the needle, or the ones right now that are, and regressing and retracting from sustainability because of political headwinds?

00:28:46:24 - 00:29:36:11
Reuven Carlyle: I think in many ways, Sarah, that's a that's a deep, almost a philosophical question for everyone to grapple with. I think that's a fair question. And I and I don't pretend that there's a simple answer, but all I can tell you is that when you use your moral authority, whether you walk into the CEO's office or you help the CSO, to to build a stronger strategy, investing in the conversation with the financial folks, for them to see the wind of circularity, of distributed energy systems, of methane capture, for them to see the business model opportunities in their own products, in their own offerings is the business value.

00:29:36:11 - 00:30:04:15
Reuven Carlyle: And that's what wakes them up to see that this is not a left wing ideological concept of philanthropic do good for climate. This is about their own long term business value proposition. To me, that's the driver of a conversation that they can then show up. My motivation is climate, but my conversation with the executives is business value. It's a see that it's a multiplier of value.

00:30:04:22 - 00:30:25:08
Reuven Carlyle: Let me give you a one other example of connecting policy and markets that I think is really relevant in the Midwest of the United States, there is not a large farm with 5000 head of cattle or or so that does not have an element of methane capture, where you capture the methane at the farm. What do you do with it?

00:30:25:10 - 00:30:48:01
Reuven Carlyle: You convert it into renewable, natural gas and you send it to the California market because the low carbon fuel standard. So every one of the hardcore conservative folks who voted against that policy, many of them are now making more money from renewable natural gas than they are from selling milk or milking cows or killing cows. There's a profound shift underway.

00:30:48:05 - 00:31:18:10
Reuven Carlyle: That's a state level policy. I use that example because five years ago or seven years ago in California, renewable diesel was probably 3% of the market. Today it's over 60%, and the carbon intensity is dramatically lower. I'm not saying it's perfect. Yes, I want electrification, but we're not going to electrify the ships outside of the port of, Long Beach and Oakland and San Francisco and Seattle that go to Asia.

00:31:18:12 - 00:31:44:02
Reuven Carlyle: They're going to run on fuel. So to me, the decarbonization of maritime, aviation, long haul trucking, energy storage, manufacture, it's a yes. And so that circularity story is the essence of progressive policy on climate and market opportunities in those other areas of the of the country that are totally focused on that. Yes.

00:31:44:02 - 00:32:04:21
Sara Gutterman: And fantastic. So what keeps you up at night from your front row seat in both politics and business? What is the one trend in climate finance or policy? Or maybe it's 2 or 3, that you think that we're not paying enough attention to, but absolutely should.

00:32:04:23 - 00:32:45:12
Reuven Carlyle: I mean, of course, right now we're living in a time where this disequilibrium is deeply unsettling on every level. So it's hard not to, be have our have our day framed by that challenge? At the same time, I think the work of our time is to is to shift the conversation and to appreciate the power and the impact of concepts like circularity, concept of, of, like regenerative agriculture, concepts like responsible water use, concepts like eliminating single use plastics.

00:32:45:14 - 00:33:13:00
Reuven Carlyle: Any one of them are worthy of, of a life well-lived, of of tackling that type of work. What keeps me up at night is, I want I want a better world for my four children. And I want people to feel, grace and love and joy in their lives. And I want them to feel inspired that the work of sustainability, the work of climate, is the work of our time.

00:33:13:02 - 00:33:15:00
Reuven Carlyle: And I don't want people to lose hope.

00:33:15:03 - 00:33:46:22
Sara Gutterman: Of of that. So I have a few more questions, but I want to slide in one that was, put into the Q&A from Philip. So Philip asks, outside of a very few states that have already started to ask for embodied carbon amounts and measurement and reporting. Where do you see governments, both state and local, moving forward with embodied carbon standards, and how will that play into resiliency as it relates to materials that are allowed in those and regulations, mandates, policy?

00:33:46:25 - 00:34:15:29
Reuven Carlyle: That's absolutely a fabulous question. To me. The the concept of this embodied carbon, is really sort of a is an arc of time. It takes time for things to gestate politically. And this concept is just at that early, early stage, hasn't it hasn't it hasn't sunk in yet. Sorry for the pun. In terms of a deeper understanding of the, dramatic incremental role that it plays.

00:34:16:01 - 00:34:35:24
Reuven Carlyle: And so I think, Philip's right in that just a few states in a few minutes, capacities are going to lead. But to me, that work is sort of sorry again for the pun, but it's sort of like the, the first, Tesla Roadster. So that first cool EV that really started to wake people up to the market opportunity.

00:34:35:24 - 00:35:04:11
Reuven Carlyle: I think we are going to see a maturity, a maturation of the policy approach. But I would put it back on, Philip, I really want to see best practices. I want to see a package of policies and suggestions and recommendations. We have a group that I used to be a very, one of the leaders of the National Caucus of Environmental Legislators, bipartisan, nationwide legislators who are driven by this work.

00:35:04:16 - 00:35:25:06
Reuven Carlyle: And they share best practices. They share lessons learned, they share data. They share bills, they share model legislation, lean into that work, help B use embedded carbon as a symbolic representation of scaling a really compelling value proposition in the policy arena.

00:35:25:08 - 00:35:59:21
Sara Gutterman: Thank you. I'm going to, just stay on this topic for a minute. We clearly seen, the climate laws passed by the state of California that are going to start requiring companies that are $1 billion or above in revenue. They will start being required to report on scope one, two and three emissions that obviously will have an impact on all of their vendors and suppliers and contractors, attorneys and bankers, to to provide emissions reporting that those larger companies can include in their reporting.

00:35:59:23 - 00:36:19:11
Sara Gutterman: Do you see that type of climate policy, taking hold in other states? You know, short time frame, or do you feel like California is going to be the big, great test? And other states are waiting on the sidelines to see what happens there. Talk a little bit about that.

00:36:19:13 - 00:36:46:08
Reuven Carlyle: Absolutely. So the California transparency and disclosure laws, California Senate Bill 253 and 261, sponsored by Senator Scott Wiener and Senator Henry Stern. I'm very, excited and invested in that work because I think it's, critical look, transparency is the first step toward sort of deep awareness. I do think all many other states are going to go in this direction after California does it.

00:36:46:08 - 00:37:07:26
Reuven Carlyle: And the reason is, is because it's millions of dollars of administrative overhead to try to figure out the mechanics of getting that data flowing. I think other states I know, Washington and many other states around the country are watching it very closely, and it makes sense to take California's data. They're now the fourth largest economy in the world.

00:37:07:29 - 00:37:31:23
Reuven Carlyle: When I was passing the cap and invest, when I was working on our, I always said, let's ski in the wake of California and let's make adjustments as we need, but get rid of those, political cliches about we're not going to follow those folks. Understand that some of these best practices, like transparency, can be transformational, because they're going to cover 70% of the companies in the country.

00:37:31:25 - 00:37:56:24
Reuven Carlyle: When the Securities and Exchange Commission in DC, under the Biden administration was playing with this, they backed off because of pressure. California just moved forward. It's going to be a delayed a year or so in terms of the mechanics. But you're absolutely right. Scope three and the ecosystem, you have to understand your footprint not as a burden and not just as a commodity.

00:37:56:24 - 00:38:21:18
Reuven Carlyle: Data set, but as an opportunity to help the global brands to decarbonize. Because if you imagine, for a sake of the conversation, imagine if Target and Home Depot and Walmart and others got together on their energy purchasing. We shouldn't be competing on electrons. We should be competing on value for the community. And there's a time to connect the dots.

00:38:21:18 - 00:38:24:05
Reuven Carlyle: And this is that time.

00:38:24:08 - 00:39:02:00
Sara Gutterman: Fantastic. I love that concept of competing on value as opposed to electrons or other commodities. It's it's really value that makes that difference. Let's apply this rationale and this, this line of thinking to buildings because again, in California, they have they're starting to require that commercial buildings over 100,000ft² report scope one, two and three emissions. We're also seeing, in places like Massachusetts, there are requirements for builders and developers to have net zero carbon plans in place, when they go in to get permits.

00:39:02:02 - 00:39:40:12
Sara Gutterman: What are you seeing in terms of policy for the built environment? I think let me just provide my thesis to you. I think that as we move closer to 20, 30 goals, whether that's from, you know, kind of the, the pioneering, municipalities like Burlington and Aspen, San Francisco and others, or, the kind of the next round of municipalities and states that have made strong commitments to reaching net zero carbon by 2030 or maybe in some cases, 2050, like New York City in LA, Seattle, Houston.

00:39:40:14 - 00:40:04:24
Sara Gutterman: Those advances are largely gonna rely on energy efficiency, electrification, deployment of renewable energy. Enhancing the sustainability of the built environment. So, I, you know, and I think the next five years are going to be very active for the built environment, for policy and regulation and mandates. Do you think that that that is true? Would you corroborate that?

00:40:04:24 - 00:40:10:01
Sara Gutterman: And what are you seeing in terms of policy for the built environment?

00:40:10:03 - 00:40:33:26
Reuven Carlyle: I think you nailed it. I think all of that is true. And the way that plays out, I think, in some ways is the conversation about natural gas, in the West is a question. You know, to me, natural gas, can be a peak or fuel. We should, I think we should think about it a little bit more in a peaker environment, as opposed to as baseload.

00:40:33:28 - 00:41:02:27
Reuven Carlyle: I would like to see us appreciate the building materials conversation, you know, and the distributed energy conversation. I think you do see cities, local and state governments with a deep appreciation for this, given the life cycle of buildings and the time frame. So you're right. The next five years are highly intense. In this area, you know, the the concept of this distributed energy as it relates to buildings in downtown Seattle.

00:41:02:27 - 00:41:30:29
Reuven Carlyle: We have a, the world's first net zero large apartment building, tall apartment building. Just a fabulous, fabulous project. And it's so amazing to see the integration of the materials with the energy source. So I think a building like that ought to have accelerated permitting, not delayed permitting. So to me, the fundamental thing, if I had that proverbial magic wand, Sarah would be the permitting reform.

00:41:31:02 - 00:42:02:06
Reuven Carlyle: And to really lean into that and to and that's where showing up with best practices from around the world, that a building like this improves public health, gives all kinds of other residual benefits, and is worthy of a change. Also, I want to be really direct. I don't think that, we should underestimate the role that professionals play in architects, contractors, advisors, consultants who really understand this subculture.

00:42:02:09 - 00:42:20:07
Reuven Carlyle: We can help local governments to make better decisions and having more access to higher quality insights and data is really useful. Don't underestimate how much value that plays. Use your moral authority for those conversations.

00:42:20:09 - 00:42:50:21
Sara Gutterman: Thanks. You. And I want to ask another question that came in through the Q&A. From Jack. So Jack is asking about, public and city and state policy around waste to energy solutions for city waste from trash pickups at home, which would then translate into no or very few landfills. This waste would be burned in a centralized high efficiency facility that could make clean energy.

00:42:50:23 - 00:42:57:04
Sara Gutterman: Do you is that on your radar? And if so, what are you seeing in terms of advances in that sector?

00:42:57:07 - 00:43:29:20
Reuven Carlyle: Absolutely. I personally really believe in the possibility of waste to energy. It's critical to circularity. I think the value proposition is off the charts. We obviously all want to make sure that the technical elements of, the, chemical release as is responsibly handled. I don't have enough technical knowledge to know the status of that. But I would say philosophically and from a policy point of view, there's a great deal of interest and activity and energy around that in the West Coast.

00:43:29:22 - 00:43:58:07
Reuven Carlyle: Legislators around the country often have this conversation about how to accelerate that, and it helps municipalities with, California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Maine and others working with extended producer responsibility, the EPR lang a legislation that is passing, I think you're seeing an accelerated willingness to embrace the concept of, waste reduction and, and waste to energy as an element of that.

00:43:58:07 - 00:44:12:06
Reuven Carlyle: So I think it's a great category. And I know people are really interested in finding ways to embrace those best practices. And there's some good activity that we learned about in Denmark, based on, waste energy as well.

00:44:12:08 - 00:44:26:24
Sara Gutterman: Interesting. All right. So let's frame the future. Who's doing it right. Which companies or entire sectors are crushing the decarbonization game? And what lessons should the building industry emulate?

00:44:26:26 - 00:45:14:18
Reuven Carlyle: You know, for me, I think there's a humility that comes with how hard this work is. And really showing up with grace in that conversation, tends to lead to companies that don't have hundreds and hundreds of people with climate sustainability in their title. It it shows up in companies that, really know their business. And, you know, I don't have an answer for you relative to, any one category or sector that is killing it, you know, but the the built environment at the local level that I see in the West Coast, particularly, is driven by this efficiency and cost reduction, and energy integrity and waste reduction.

00:45:14:18 - 00:45:39:07
Reuven Carlyle: So I see it in like I mentioned, that the net zero building in downtown Seattle and others. So I see it, coming from architects willing to, to have interesting ideas. I see it from, real estate companies that are very interested in the long term CapEx cost savings. I see it in the warehouse sector, which is moving toward rooftop solar at the speed of light.

00:45:39:09 - 00:46:03:02
Reuven Carlyle: We are seeing dramatic embrace of rooftop solar, even in Seattle and places like that, where your perceptions are that it's not a good location. So I see it in the built environment every day. And I know that the moral authority of the work that people, show up with, is impacting companies and organizations every single day.

00:46:03:05 - 00:46:33:25
Sara Gutterman: Now, I want to ask about greenwashing because we have seen some companies, unfortunately, most of the companies we work with are not stepping away from their from corporate sustainability or even their ESG work or, climate solutions. So with that said, there are companies that are pulling back from commitments from marketing, language and messaging. How do we, how is that green hushing counterbalanced?

00:46:33:25 - 00:46:45:15
Sara Gutterman: Is that a temporary PR strategy? While these political winds are are blowing in this direction, or is it a dangerous environment?

00:46:45:17 - 00:47:16:19
Reuven Carlyle: That's a that's a challenge. And I do think that there's a lot of value in the language of business value. I don't think that's a retreat. But there are companies who are absolutely retreating, no question about it. And how they show up and how they choose to show up. I think you're seeing from target, some, you know, some representation and challenge of their business and challenges that they're facing.

00:47:16:23 - 00:47:40:07
Reuven Carlyle: And they've been a leader in the built environment. I mean, they've done built net zero warehouses or facilities. I mean, stores, just incredible. But their sales are down substantially due to some of the policy and political choices that their executive leadership seems to have made. I think we are in acknowledging that the built environment lives in a 50 year time frame or so.

00:47:40:10 - 00:48:03:08
Reuven Carlyle: I think it's incredibly important to stay grounded in the science, stay grounded in the data, stay grounded in the value proposition of efficiency and resiliency and adaptation. Stay grounded in cost reduction. And be really comfortable with that language. I don't think we should retreat. Of course, I don't think that we should, cower, to this moment.

00:48:03:10 - 00:48:26:17
Reuven Carlyle: But I do think that we can meet people where they are by having our language represent the marketplace in thoughtful ways. I don't think that's inconsistent with meaningful climate action. I don't think we have to beat people over the head with some ideological view. That or philosophical view, I should say that, climate action is the number one goal.

00:48:26:17 - 00:48:52:22
Reuven Carlyle: I think you can say that quality of life and, economic success of our families and our communities and our businesses is the goal. And that means leaning in to efficiency and quality and circularity and all of this work. So I think language does matter. But I also think staying grounded in who we are and the work that we're doing, you know, this is not a 40 year journey.

00:48:52:25 - 00:48:56:24
Reuven Carlyle: This is a lifetime journey. And I think we should stay grounded in that.

00:48:56:27 - 00:49:14:20
Sara Gutterman: That's beautiful. So moving. What's the next frontier after corporate sustainability, after carbon accounting, after climate disclosure mandates what comes next? What's the edge of the edge when it comes to climate strategy and capital markets?

00:49:14:23 - 00:49:42:12
Reuven Carlyle: You know, I think that some of the most exciting thing to do is to explore what the entrepreneurs are doing. If you look at the I like to spend time looking at the portfolio of Breakthrough Energy, lower carbon, galvanize, elemental. I mean, the premier climate related investors on the planet, the folks in the EU, the folks in the Nordics, and other places around the world.

00:49:42:19 - 00:50:21:22
Reuven Carlyle: To me, as an entrepreneur, the passion and the spirit and the life and the breadth of entrepreneurial ism is what showcases opportunity and business model innovation. So for me, I think some of the interesting startups, some of the interesting early stages, some of the interesting research coming out of universities still, all point to concepts that we've talked about, like circularity concepts like distributed energy systems, waste to energy, opportunities for new materials, opportunities for carbon capture and storage, opportunities for direct air capture.

00:50:21:24 - 00:50:45:17
Reuven Carlyle: I like tough to decarbonize sectors. I'm a huge believer in the aviation sector. Aviation today is 2% of global emissions. By 2050, it's going to be 23% if they don't do anything and other industries continue to decarbonize. So the use of fuels, renewable diesel and others that have a fraction of the carbon intensity, of traditional fossil fuels.

00:50:45:20 - 00:51:23:02
Reuven Carlyle: So those are spaces that I like. I also like a recognition, that the business value proposition of connecting your energy system to your transportation system. So again, I use that rooftop solar to charge up your commercial vehicles. That that is a circularity play as well, of course, and the energy storage opportunities that come with us. I think technology wise, battery storage and energy storage is the most consequential in many ways because that's going to drive so much of our built environment and our transportation systems.

00:51:23:05 - 00:51:47:22
Sara Gutterman: Interesting. So if you were a venture capitalist running, let's say a half $1 billion fine. Right? So not a smaller a midsize, but also not a massive size. What categories would you invest in right now? Like what are the technologies? Not necessarily specific companies, but like the very specific technologies that you'd be investing?

00:51:47:24 - 00:52:09:18
Reuven Carlyle: Well, I mean, I think look, I mean, I think there's a lot of different categories. I think one is, I look at the refrigerant category refrigeration, I look at the profound impact of their footprint. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for innovation there. I look at the category again around fuels and energy storage and battery storage.

00:52:09:20 - 00:52:31:26
Reuven Carlyle: I look at the tough to decarbonize sectors that really need opportunity. Some of those are infrastructure and they're just long term. I also look and are tough to invest in at that scale. But others are driven by data and the opportunity for high value data insights. One of the things that we do in Earth Finance that I love is we stack planetary data with business data.

00:52:31:28 - 00:52:55:12
Reuven Carlyle: So we allow for that long term strategic visibility and business analytics into decision making. The purpose of data is to make decisions, not to just sit around as a commodity. And so I like that space and the use of data in a really intelligent way as it relates to water and nature and carbon and decarbonization. Journey. So those are some of the categories that I like.

00:52:55:15 - 00:53:08:24
Sara Gutterman: All right. So, Reuben, here's my final question. And that is what's your perspective on AI and how I can be a climate solution catalyst as a, as opposed to a clean energy user?

00:53:08:27 - 00:53:38:03
Reuven Carlyle: Yeah, absolutely a challenge. I think it can help from a thought leadership point of view relative to this concept that we talked about, about best practices. I think the the learning that comes from that is incredible. In terms of the energy use, I think that the key issue to me from a policy and a political point of view, if I was still chairman of the Senate Committee, I would require that I embed in the negative externalities of their energy use into the cost.

00:53:38:06 - 00:53:49:21
Reuven Carlyle: So the idea that we give them tax breaks versus charging them the full cost of the use of the energy is a fundamental policy problem that I would tackle.

00:53:49:23 - 00:53:56:02
Sara Gutterman: Fantastic. So, Ruben, do you have any last tips, tricks or hacks for our audience before we wrap things up?

00:53:56:04 - 00:54:26:16
Reuven Carlyle: Well, we got a couple of final questions here. One says recommending that, nonprofits, NGOs, helping on the global climate, initiatives, how to local how do their local experiences contribute to, to, to global change? I, I can't stress enough what a beautiful opportunity that is for that moral authority thought leadership. As I said, use your moral authority for climate and you will have fulfillment beyond your dreams.

00:54:26:16 - 00:55:08:18
Reuven Carlyle: I just think that that's the way, to contribute and contributing your local experiences for those insights and those best practices and those points of views. Help move markets. Another question was from the country of Georgia, regarding international collaboration to help the development of countries in regions where climate changes are so, so difficult. I don't think any of us can understate our humility and appreciation and recognition of the uniqueness of the challenge that that brings, particularly, with so much, international relations and the war in Ukraine and other challenges.

00:55:08:20 - 00:55:48:06
Reuven Carlyle: It's incredibly important. I think keeping the voice of the local experience real and embracing those best practices and lessons learned so that when you walk into your local community, permitting office or built environment, you when they rebuild something or when they want to, explore an initiative like, gas and oil or gas extraction that they think a lot about what those best practices for methane capture might be and leak reduction, you know, every one of us can only show up with the type of, thought leadership in those areas that we know so well in our local communities.

00:55:48:09 - 00:56:00:05
Reuven Carlyle: Connect the dots between real people living real lives and the international headlines of chaos and make it real for real people.

00:56:00:08 - 00:56:24:28
Sara Gutterman: Ruben, thank you so much. I have said over the course of the last couple of days, that you are absolutely one of my favorite presenters and favorite people to have this kind of a wide ranging discussion, because you can answer everything, so comprehensively. And I can ask you anything always. And, and you always have a fascinating response.

00:56:24:28 - 00:56:52:09
Sara Gutterman: So really appreciate your time and appreciate your, global leadership through Earth Finance. It was funny because when I asked Will Sana to present on water, I hadn't realized that Earth Scientist had actually acquired his company. So, that was a very, pleasant thing to learn. And congrats on that. So with that, Ruben, I'm going to pass it over to Mike to wrap up our Sustainability symposium 2025 A Force of Nature.

00:56:52:09 - 00:57:01:13
Sara Gutterman: But again, Ruben, thank you so much for your wisdom, for your passion and your commitment. It comes through and every word you speak. And we appreciate your time here today.

00:57:01:15 - 00:57:08:09
Reuven Carlyle: Thank you for the opportunity and thank you to all the participants for leaving it all on the field for climate.

00:57:08:11 - 00:57:31:18
Mike Collignon: Well, Ruben. Well said, Sarah, and, yeah, my my personal thanks to Ruben as well. Always, always fun to listen to your talk, sir. Appreciate you taking the time here. And, yes, with that, we will draw this iteration of the sustainability symposium to a close. Thank you to the hundreds of attendees and our entire lineup of speakers.

00:57:31:18 - 00:58:01:18
Mike Collignon: Not just Ruben, but all the speakers. Thank you so, so much. And a big, big, huge thank you to our wonderful sponsors, Trane Technologies and the Whirlpool Corporation. And, one more congratulations to Greenville, the media on their 20th anniversary. So for Mary Kushner, Mel Smith, Matt Power, Sarah Gutterman, the entire Greenville, their media crew. Thank you for joining us for the 2025 Sustainability Symposium on my Collignon, and I hope to see you again soon.

00:58:01:23 - 00:58:08:06
Mike Collignon: And one of our upcoming webinars. Until next time, stay safe. Stay healthy. Take care everyone. So long.