Sustainability Symposium 2022 Paul Hawken

00:00:03:16 - 00:00:46:17
Sara Gutterman: Now one man who does not hesitate to think boldly, speak loudly and act assertively is sustainability pioneer and a friend of mine and a mentor to me. Paul Hawken. Paul is one of the original climate capitalists and environmental mentalist. Over the course of the year of his career, he has been an entrepreneur, founder of Smith and Hockney, Smith and Hawking gardening stores, a lecturer, a consultant to governments and companies throughout the globe, and the best selling author of eight books, including Ecology of Commerce, which helped kick off the corporate sustainability movement, I dare say, as well as more recent works draw down in regeneration.

00:00:46:19 - 00:01:04:08
Sara Gutterman: In today's session, Paul is going to talk about regeneration, ending the climate crisis in one generation, a radical new approach to the climate crisis. So with that, Paul, my friend, I'm going to hand over the mic to you and look forward to hearing what you have to say.

00:01:04:11 - 00:01:33:06
Paul Hawken: Thank you, Sarah, and nice to listen to you. I can just listen to you for a while and not do what I'm supposed to do, but I really appreciate what you have done. For many years, we've known each other for many years, and you're unflagging dedication to green building. Whatever term you want to use is admirable and as really had really amazing results as I think everyone knows.

00:01:33:09 - 00:02:00:29
Paul Hawken: And I want to say thank you for those who are watching and participating. Welcome. I feel welcomed by Sarah, Mike and I hope the same is from you to me. You know, I'm going to try to mix up the language here, maybe. And the reason for that is because 98% of the people in the world today are disengaged from doing anything about climate.

00:02:01:02 - 00:02:29:25
Paul Hawken: Okay, 98% aren't doing anything. And more than half of them know, you know, that we have a problem. They know that there's anthropogenic causes of the changes in whether they know that things are getting worse and yet and yet they don't do anything. And so I've been thinking about that for a long time, you know, and watching that sort of frozen block.

00:02:29:25 - 00:02:48:20
Paul Hawken: Now we think a lot is going on because that's what we do and that's our friends, and that is our bubble and that is our social networks, and that is conferences like this. And a lot is happening, this amazing things occurring in the world and the growth with respect to.

00:02:48:22 - 00:03:06:14
Paul Hawken: Let's say, the broader sense of a movement to address global warming is extraordinary right now, but it's growing from a very small base. And so let's go back and to look at that word regeneration. Why did I choose that word? Not that I could choose it. Well, one is because I don't think sustainability is a good word at all.

00:03:06:14 - 00:03:30:20
Paul Hawken: And the reason is because it's conceptual, you know, providing the needs of one generation and not compromising the needs of the succeeding generations. It's just like, cool. But then how do you apply that? You know, and then you have to figure that one out. And sustainability has been I'm an English major, has become kind of a weasel word in the sense that it can be used to mean just about anything by anybody, specially in ESG.

00:03:30:22 - 00:03:55:20
Paul Hawken: As you read recently, weapons manufacturers now want to be ESG rated. You know, I mean, so ESG is such a broad definition. And and so we need to actually look at our language the way we're talking to each other, the way we're speaking, because I think the language we're using is disengaging people, is turning people off. And here's why we're using negative terms.

00:03:55:20 - 00:04:23:04
Paul Hawken: And it started 50 years ago when climate science became evident in the media, and it was called Future Existential Threat. And that was exactly right. And what does threat mean? Threat means fear. In other words, threat was used as a way to invoke a kind of a long distance fear, but nevertheless fear. So there's threatened fear in the 1970s with Earth Day and sort of the rising up of an environmental movement in this country.

00:04:23:05 - 00:04:49:29
Paul Hawken: Not to say it didn't exist prior to that, but definitely in 1970. And what happened is climate was very much a part of that, and people began to blame and shame and use guilt basically as a way to motivate, you know, to isolate, to identify, you know, Exxon and Chevron, etc., you know, car companies, etc. and not to say they weren't correct in their analyzes and causes.

00:04:50:02 - 00:05:32:26
Paul Hawken: Accepting now you had fear, threat, shame, blame, guilt, stir well and you really don't get a good result when you have those five things mixed together. We know that from neuroscience, the brain starts to turn off in a and we know that it hasn't really produced the kind of activity we want to see. If anything, over time has produced a kind of a division, you know, a pushback because the same, the very same people that have used who are the which you say the, the leaders in terms of carbon fuels and combustion and all the ways of doing things have a lot of money.

00:05:32:26 - 00:05:55:12
Paul Hawken: And they've used fear as a way to educate the American people. So miseducation really about the dangers, you know, that somehow we dress climate that we're going to screw up our economy. And the other thing that's going on more recently, and this is why Sarah, about decarbonization is we have made carbon the enemy. We call it carbon pollution, negative emissions.

00:05:55:12 - 00:06:20:16
Paul Hawken: Decarbonization is somehow it's the perpetrator where the victim, you know, and we got to, you know, get rid of it. And actually it's upside down and backwards. Decarbonization is the cause of the problem. We decarbonize the Earth and we put it up in the atmosphere. And so what we're talking about with regeneration and really a long term solution and a short term activity to achieve that long term solution is actually bringing carbon back home.

00:06:20:19 - 00:06:53:04
Paul Hawken: And that's really involves two things. What we do in the in the built environment, what we do in the products we make, what we do with, how we make the heat pumps. The train makes, you know, the and also how we treat the living world. And so what we've been taught and what we've been told and what we've sort of come to believe that if we hit net zero emissions, you know, and let's say it's 2050, that we have so-called decarbonize the economy, okay.

00:06:53:05 - 00:07:16:07
Paul Hawken: That is, we're not combusting coal, gas and oil, basically, you know, very small amount. But by that time virtually none. And that we get a hall pass to the 22nd century, we're cool, we're good. And that's just not true. And if we don't do that, we don't get a hall pass for sure. So it's absolutely imperative that we do that in every aspect of transport.

00:07:16:08 - 00:07:50:15
Paul Hawken: And obviously the built environment where we produce, you know, clothing, food, AG, etc.. Of course, you know, we need to do that. That's what we're doing. But at the same time, we are destroying the living world and our economy is extractive. We have been taught, we've learned, we do it automatically in our supply chains. We take life. We extract from the oceans, from the soil, from the forest, from the mines, from people, from cultures, you name it.

00:07:50:18 - 00:08:17:15
Paul Hawken: And we're extracting even Google and Facebook, basically our extractive industries, they're extracting what we like and what we don't like in order to increase our consumption. Okay. So what we know and what Sarah talked about so eloquently is that we can see that that road of degeneration, because that's what extraction is taking life destroying life is degenerating and degenerative.

00:08:17:16 - 00:08:45:17
Paul Hawken: We can see that that road ends. We can kind of look around. Oh yeah, there's the end of that road. That's what the headlines. That's what Sarah is talking about in terms of, you know, too much rain to little rain, drought, migration, refugees, ill health. I mean, it goes on and on. War conflicts, social unrest, all these things are outcomes when you have highly disruptive influences on agriculture, food economy, jobs, etc..

00:08:45:19 - 00:09:08:24
Paul Hawken: And so we can see at the end of that road. So the only thing that makes sense is really to do a pivot, a 180 and ask ourselves, can we create a GDP? Can we create a prosperous economy? Can we create a world that actually creates more life instead of less? That's it. I mean, regeneration is putting life at the center of every act and decision.

00:09:08:24 - 00:09:47:25
Paul Hawken: It doesn't mean you can do a complete flip in one day or one year necessarily. It's a direction. No, it's where we are going. Where do we need to go and where we need to go is to produce more life, not less life. You can cut down Amazon with a sustainably powered, renewable energy lithium ion battery chainsaw just as easily as one that's powered powered with gasoline, you know, so we have to look at this in a broader way than just thinking of it as decarbonization, you know, which is, of course, you know, I mean, absolutely necessary.

00:09:47:27 - 00:10:07:10
Paul Hawken: And so we need to open up the dialog and the conversation as well, because I said 98% of people disengaged. Well, I mean, if you're struggling to make ends meet and, you know, get your children to school and food security and, you know, 4.5 billion people in the world, you know, wake up with current existential threat that very morning.

00:10:07:11 - 00:10:41:29
Paul Hawken: Morning after morning after morning. So if those people if you talk about future existential threat or 1.5 C or jargon or climate smart agriculture or all these other kind of terms, it mean nothing to most people, nothing then and they're not engaged. Well, not surprising, they have more important things to do take care of their family, the children, their self, their health, education, you know, etc. so what we need to do is to change how we talk about this.

00:10:42:03 - 00:11:02:26
Paul Hawken: And the fear guilt, shame thing is still very much there. This is what you can do. Of course, things you can do. Of course, you know we cycle drive less ev questionable if you kind of, you know if you can afford it, great. But that's not an option for a lot of people. EVs and so forth, electrification of the built environment and everything.

00:11:02:28 - 00:11:27:04
Paul Hawken: Absolutely. And train is a leader in that. And electrifying is probably one of the most important things we can do, you know, right now. And so Griffin's book on electrified talks about it eloquently. I urge you to read his book. If not, it's a small section in regeneration, which is really taken from my conversations with Saul. But that is extremely important course and so forth.

00:11:27:04 - 00:11:55:16
Paul Hawken: But what we need to do is to make this sounds crazy, but addressing global warming? Cool. I don't mean coolant temperature. I mean cool in the sense of like it's celebratory, it's fun, it's engaging. It's what we want to do. And in order to do that, we have to open it up as to what are the possibilities are which, you know, in terms of engaging in terms of being employed, in terms of doing things and break it out of its niche.

00:11:55:18 - 00:12:14:11
Paul Hawken: It's silo, which is really about fossil fuels. Okay, understandably. And that's great. But we have to open it up. And so we generation the movement and it's an emerging movement across the world right now because it's obvious there's nothing we climb. Nothing I didn't, you know, drawdown I didn't coin that time either. It came from the climate literature.

00:12:14:13 - 00:12:50:00
Paul Hawken: But what we generation means is putting life at the center of every acting decision. And big corporations are doing that. Nestlé is committed to converting all 1 million farms into supply chain to regenerative agriculture. Why? Okay. And this again goes back to what Sarah saying about progress, you know, which is progress is going to happen whether we wanted to or not in progress in this sense, is actually creating a world that actually is regenerative, that is to create more life for more people and more creatures and more lands and soils and oceans, etc. than it is right now instead of taking it.

00:12:50:00 - 00:13:13:02
Paul Hawken: And the reason they're doing this is because it's pragmatic. They want to be here 150 years from now. They've been around for 150 years. They are budgeting a billion and a half dollars to help their farmers cacao and coffee and row crop farmers, you know, all over the world to make the transition to regenerative agriculture because it's more resilient.

00:13:13:03 - 00:13:40:06
Paul Hawken: It holds water, it has more. The soil becomes a reservoir again and so forth. You get disease resistance and the crops themselves and so forth. In lowers costs, it raises productivity, and it is more adapted to a disruptive world in terms of climate, in terms of heat, in terms of too much cold, in terms of too much water, in terms of too little water and so forth.

00:13:40:06 - 00:14:03:09
Paul Hawken: So for them to shift to the general of agriculture is is the right thing to do. Of course, it's the right thing to do is an altruistic. No, it's pragmatic. It's absolutely pragmatic. So what you're doing, all of you here listening, and what we're all talking about today and what the sustainability Symposium is about is really just it's about pragmatism.

00:14:03:09 - 00:14:28:21
Paul Hawken: It's about a practical application of what we know, what we have invented, what we've created, what we know how to apply, design, build, construct, produce in such a way that we create more life on Earth instead of less. And so, again, going back to language, you know, I just feel like, you know, this idea of like somehow carbons occurs, you know, and it's not true.

00:14:28:23 - 00:14:56:03
Paul Hawken: You have 120 million carbon molecules in every cell of your body, you know, 37 trillion cells, you know, and you do the math on that one. It's huge. You know, it's 44 with eight zeros after it, you know, I mean, 24 zero. Excuse me. And I mean carbon is life itself, you know, and it is an extraordinary element, you know, about which, you know, we are they don't depend on it.

00:14:56:04 - 00:15:18:21
Paul Hawken: We're in itself, you know, and it flows beautifully throughout this world, in the living systems that we admire, that we that that we are endeared to, that we love, that we paint, that we see, that feeds us, that nurtures us, that supports life on earth, our life on earth, and so forth. So we have to see this in a different way.

00:15:18:21 - 00:15:37:28
Paul Hawken: And I think we also have to see climate change a little differently. And that is the language we're using around climate change is so interesting because we're using more and more words, sports metaphors and like, we have to fight, you know, we have to tackle climate change. We have to, you know, what is it a combat? That's a good one.

00:15:37:29 - 00:16:01:28
Paul Hawken: You know, during a war in Ukraine and Russia, we're going to combat climate change. You know, we're using male inspired war and sports metaphors to basically talk about climate. And the problem with that is where other end climate and maybe get other where is it somewhere we're going to fight and combat and tackle it. That's so crazy. Because first of all, the climate is supposed to change.

00:16:02:01 - 00:16:24:20
Paul Hawken: It's supposed to change every nanosecond. And it does because of the tilt of the axis of the Earth and so forth, and because of ocean temperature, ocean currents and the jet stream and causes weather. Right? So it changes all the time. And we wouldn't have food and rivers and glaciers and grizzly bears and blueberries and all the things that we love and treasure and joy and cherry blossoms this spring, if it wasn't for climate change.

00:16:24:20 - 00:16:51:17
Paul Hawken: So the climate is supposed to change is nothing we can do about that. What we need to focus on is the way we think about this, because we think, well, we have to fight it. What we need to do is change us. Of course we're the problem. It's not the problem. And the the weather, the climate is responding to what we do here, and the idea that the biosphere and the atmosphere are two different things is also a misconception.

00:16:51:18 - 00:17:26:05
Paul Hawken: No more than our lungs and the gases we breathe in Excel, carbon breathing, oxygen exhale carbon dioxide makes it a separate entity from our body. That's just not true. We're one body, and the Earth is one thing. And that. And that involves climate, of course, and we identify it. But the thing is that I want to emphasize is that the impacts that are referred to and that are forthcoming, those impacts are.

00:17:26:08 - 00:17:50:11
Paul Hawken: Feedback. It's feedback from the planet. It's a feedback from the atmosphere. And so if we are not looking at it from that point of view, rather than the point of view of somehow, it's a curse, something's gone wrong and so forth. You know, then we're not learning the lesson that's there and so forth, because nature never makes a mistake.

00:17:50:12 - 00:18:15:03
Paul Hawken: We do. And so we have to look at that and talk together and come together. And we only come together if we actually create a movement that has big arms, that is inclusive, that addresses social justice, and we don't have to look at it as climate justice, you know, or, you know, we have to understand the social justice creating created a global warming, created the problem we are right now, right now.

00:18:15:03 - 00:18:54:07
Paul Hawken: And so it's really about coming together as opposed to being right. You know, it's really about listening rather than telling people that they screwed up. It's really about compassion. And fundamentally it's about regeneration. And I mean that because regeneration is innate to who we are as human beings, every time we take care of our children, our our family, our garden, our dog, our neighbors, our community, our church or synagogue, our temple, our classroom, any time we events and and express care.

00:18:54:10 - 00:19:26:02
Paul Hawken: That is regeneration. Regeneration is the innate quality of a human being in all living things. It's the default mode of nature. And so the climate movement has to really, in a sense, make it's wonderful what is going on. Don't get me wrong, but it has to somehow get bigger and bigger arms and embrace it. Like just like a great grandmother or something, you know, has to look at all of it and bring it together so that people see the things that they're doing.

00:19:26:03 - 00:19:58:27
Paul Hawken: Do relate to reversing global warming, that they do relate to making it a better world, and to understand that the climate solutions both in drawdown, regeneration, I mean, if you took away every climate scientists that existed today, we had no idea what was causing extreme weather. We would want to do every single one of those solutions because it just makes a better world and it creates more purpose, more dignity, more meaning, a higher quality of life, more health, cleaner water, better food.

00:19:58:28 - 00:20:22:24
Paul Hawken: I mean, more security, I mean, right? Check check check check check. You look at all the solutions, you know. And so somehow that hasn't message hasn't gotten through, as responsible as anybody for not letting it get through or not communicating in a proper way, but so that the world can see that, you know, its bread is buttered on that side of the toast.

00:20:22:25 - 00:20:51:11
Paul Hawken: You know, I mean that these things are us, humanity evolving, coming together in a way, and looking at climate change, as it's called, global warming as it is as a as a offering, as a is, like I say, a nudge, you know, as feedback. And any system that ignores the back perishes and we're no different. Our civilization is no different.

00:20:51:11 - 00:21:20:15
Paul Hawken: So I just want to say thank you to all. I don't know who you are exactly. I don't know what you're doing, but you're here for that reason, you know, to really reimagine what it means to be a human being at this time on this planet. And it is a blessing, you know, it is like, you know, what better job because you have really and as I say to certain audiences, you know that whatever, we don't describe them.

00:21:20:15 - 00:21:42:02
Paul Hawken: But but I asked him, given what we know about the world today and where we are, you know, the question is, why are you here at all? Why are you here now at this planet? And I think we're here to learn what the planet is teaching us, what life is teaching us, what to learn from each other, to learn where we've aired, failed, misunderstood, and to come together without understanding.

00:21:42:04 - 00:22:08:20
Paul Hawken: I'm sure Sandra will address that. And her talk follows mine. And we have this. We're at a threshold, really, of a real breakthrough, I think, as opposed to we're going downhill and the climate movement. And I want to say one more thing about it. In the most of Morpheus sense of that word, I don't mean there's a movement somewhere with some charismatic leader.

00:22:08:20 - 00:22:43:13
Paul Hawken: There's not. It's everywhere in the world right now. But I think it's important because NGOs will come to me and others will say, you know, we're we're we're making progress, but we're not making enough progress. That is to say, it's getting worse faster than it's getting better. And and I wouldn't disagree with that on the numbers. But what I will say is this and that is that somebody asked me that when I was on stage once and, and I said, you know, the way I see it is that we are rehearsing the future.

00:22:43:15 - 00:23:04:23
Paul Hawken: We are. And Sarah said the same thing in so many words. We're rehearsing it, we're practicing it, we're implementing it too, and so forth. And the thing that's going to happen in the next 10 to 20 years, you know, is the weather is going to continue to change and become more impactful and more disruptive. And what that means is that people wake up.

00:23:04:23 - 00:23:30:29
Paul Hawken: In the last two years, what we've seen is concept of climate change or global warming. Go from a concept to experience show that was people are experiencing it in the country, in their farm, in a village, in their town, you know, inner companies. And that is the big shift. And that shift is going to continue to grow and grow and grow.

00:23:30:29 - 00:24:01:21
Paul Hawken: And when people move from a concept to experience, like I get it viscerally, I understand it on all levels emotionally, mentally, physically, you know, familiarly, community, my farm, my this that's the change. And what do we do as people? If something happens to us or we break an arm, we have sickness or something happens to our home or, you know, our car or whatever, we turn to somebody who knows more than we do.

00:24:01:27 - 00:24:41:10
Paul Hawken: We always do. We don't know. We know what to do. We turn to the experts. You are the experts. You are rehearsing the future, and the world is going to turn to you. And it may not turn fast enough, I think. I don't, I wish it was faster, but it's going to turn to you and many, many, many others all over the world who understand, who am expressing, embodying this and trying to regenerate basically their place, their locale, their favela, their community, their farmlands, their grasslands, their coastal wetlands, I mean, and it goes on and on and on.

00:24:41:10 - 00:25:08:05
Paul Hawken: People are doing this, you know, and if you go to the regeneration and Nexus, you'll see hundreds, thousands of links to organizations and people all around the world that are specifically doing things with respect to the insect extinction, you know, to things that you may not think have anything to do with climate. They have huge connection to climate, but you'll see they're just how widespread, diverse and ubiquitous it is in the world right now.

00:25:08:05 - 00:25:34:25
Paul Hawken: It's an emerging movement, and there's no question in my mind, so forth, that the world will turn to people like you, you know, because you care. And that is me. Generation and caring comes from this. It comes from our hearts. You know, it's we all have them and it's kindness and every human being, I don't know, in whatever the situation is, is kind and that is regeneration.

00:25:34:25 - 00:25:57:00
Paul Hawken: And that means basically loving the world as it is. And I see my it sounds like there's time for questions. Anyway, I want to thank you. And for the questions because I find them so much more instructive than when my mouth is open. The questions you have are really teaching teachings for me, so thank you.

00:25:57:02 - 00:26:17:15
Mike Collignon: All right. Thank you much, sir. I wanted to get to questions and let people know that they can ask questions for Paul. We'll get to as many as we can here in the time we have. We've got a two part question from Zaya, and I'm going to take them one at a time. So the first part is who do you see describing this narrative properly?

00:26:17:22 - 00:26:27:17
Mike Collignon: Is there is there somebody or somebody that you see out there and you could point to and say, you know what, this person's on to something from the narrative point of view.

00:26:27:19 - 00:27:07:26
Paul Hawken: If the narrative is had the specificity about this time and place right now, you know, 2022, I would say Damon at 2040, I would say that I mentioned Saul, Leah Penniman, and so far from in Albany condemnation. I mean, I can make a whole list of people who, there's some really interesting people, you know, Gen Z, you know, some youth activists, you know, I mean, they're just stunning really, in their understanding, comprehension.

00:27:07:26 - 00:27:45:24
Paul Hawken: I think partly because, you know, there are recent arrivals. We have been around longer. And, you know, as recent arrivals on the planet, they're going, you know, what were you thinking? It's a fair question. It's a very good question. What were we thinking? And just so you have those new eyes, you know, to see it, you know, unvarnished, you know, not, you know, over, not having been, you know, educated in a way of doing things to thinking about things, you know, that actually is really inappropriate and doesn't work anymore today.

00:27:45:24 - 00:28:02:27
Paul Hawken: So. But I don't think there's a single voice, you know, there's not like a Martin Luther King, there's not a Gandhi, there's not that type of person, you know, but there's a lot of really beautiful voices.

00:28:02:29 - 00:28:14:21
Mike Collignon: So then the second part of the question is, who can young innovators look to in order to better understand how to frame and articulate this opportunity?

00:28:14:23 - 00:28:18:15
Paul Hawken: Well, I wouldn't.

00:28:18:17 - 00:28:51:18
Paul Hawken: Say that they should not look to to older generations, but be very careful, be very selective. And there's a lot you can learn. There's when I started, you know, everyone natural foods, you know, in 1966. Come on. And that gives you how old I am. But I, I started, you know, we sold only organically grown food and there was farmers I went to who never changed, you know, before the war, during the war, after the war.

00:28:51:20 - 00:29:29:06
Paul Hawken: And, you know, and they were such beautiful people who understood the land and the relationship between people and the land. And I learned so much from them and so forth. At the same time, there is the the entrepreneurship and the innovation that's going on right now. You know, in, in Gen Z. And. I mean, it's extraordinary. I mean, I have people who are investors, you know, venture investors, they cannot keep up with the thousands of business plans that are coming into them.

00:29:29:06 - 00:29:59:07
Paul Hawken: And you read them and maybe they're not all investable, but they're brilliant and they're innovative. And so one thing that I think we don't get, I didn't until I saw this, is the rate at which people are coming together on all levels of technology and application, you know, all around the world to create alternatives, you know, solutions that are in many cases really, really, really good business models.

00:29:59:07 - 00:30:21:01
Paul Hawken: In some cases they are nonprofits and depend on contributions. And but I would say that in some way, I think we need to get that information out. We try to in Nexus in regeneration org and it's all about agency. What you can do as an individual or as a group, as a company, as a city, as a class, as a, you know, a neighborhood and so forth.

00:30:21:01 - 00:30:33:15
Paul Hawken: And then those link right to those people and those organizations. But I don't think there's a sufficient amount of information going out there to answer that question, so people can find out themselves.

00:30:33:18 - 00:30:59:16
Mike Collignon: All right. We've got some great questions, Paul, I'm going to take the one here that's kind of off from all the others that I've got. But then we're going to get into some profession or trade specific questions for you. So let's go with this one first. It's from our friend Fernando. Are there any statistics on the CO2 emissions of war and how can it be reversed in the short term?

00:30:59:18 - 00:31:09:00
Paul Hawken: God, I love that question. I love it because, you know, when I was going around with drawdown,

00:31:09:02 - 00:31:38:29
Paul Hawken: People were very they like ranking in America. They love ranking one, two, three, four, five, six is a very American thing. Okay. And but every so often in conversation, you know, I say the number one cause isn't even there. Well what's that? And I would say it's war. Absolutely. And and it's not refrigerant management. It's war. And and they said, well why isn't it there.

00:31:38:29 - 00:32:10:18
Paul Hawken: I said, because there's no data and, you know, draw it on end regeneration based on data. And there's 7262 citations in regeneration. Okay. You know, and same with drawdowns more than that. And we do not know. And so in regeneration I do talk about the war industry though and and somehow how we have excluded that from climate. Like, okay, we have to fix our air conditioners.

00:32:10:18 - 00:32:36:07
Paul Hawken: We have to, you know, go to heat pumps, we have to do this. We have to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. War was like like what? You know, it just wasn't mentioned. And so, so it's in there and I think it's a really, really, really important point and is of course more evident right now, of course, that we're in a seeing a war right now, an act of war.

00:32:36:07 - 00:32:40:27
Paul Hawken: But we've been seeing wars every year for the last 50 years to just smaller.

00:32:40:29 - 00:33:06:23
Mike Collignon: Right? Right. All right. We're going to get into some of these, like I said, trade specific questions. We're going to start off with just kind of a general question from Kimberly. Can you comment on how we as an audience can influence a reversal of the pervasive disenfranchisement of skilled trades upon whom the maintenance and evolution of our infrastructure depends?

00:33:06:25 - 00:33:11:21
Paul Hawken: Well, I mean, that's actually a statement.

00:33:11:24 - 00:33:31:29
Paul Hawken: Most questions are it's a really good statement. I would love to know more about the disenfranchisement. You know, I don't know if it's pay or training or or I don't I don't know that I don't know the cause. You know, I know that where I live, basically the entire.

00:33:32:02 - 00:34:05:20
Paul Hawken: Building trades are Hispanic. Everything is Hispanic now in California and really great, really great workers to and very intelligent and much more. So with all due respect, where I live, to what preceded them. And so I I'd have to learn more about that question to know what it means is that bricklayers, you know, is the people who, you know, carpenters is electricity to the plumbers.

00:34:05:21 - 00:34:14:24
Paul Hawken: Is it infrastructure in terms of the larger sense of steel? Bridges is a you know, I'm not sure what that question applies to, but it's an interesting question.

00:34:14:27 - 00:34:18:10
Mike Collignon: Gotcha. Okay.

00:34:18:12 - 00:34:32:25
Mike Collignon: So we've got Joe with us who is a designer of homes. And he's wanting to know if you have any ideas on how he can talk about the construction of a home in a regenerative way?

00:34:32:27 - 00:35:02:05
Paul Hawken: Well, yeah. I mean, you may not use that word because people are practical and they want to know about warmth. You know, about cost to the home, about operating costs, about maintenance, about. And I think one of the things that bedeviled, you know, the green building movement for a long time was in when corporations or companies were building things.

00:35:02:06 - 00:35:28:10
Paul Hawken: The first cost was in one department of accounting, and then operating costs were in a different part of the and they didn't talk to each other. And green buildings had, you know, basically were cheaper, but they didn't combine the two, you know, and so you got this pressure to reduce first cost per square foot instead of looking at productivity, looking at operating costs and so forth.

00:35:28:10 - 00:35:44:02
Paul Hawken: And so that's what you can do in a conversation with a homeowner or prospective homeowner or home to build a home that is like, okay, let's look at it. How long you do, you tend to be here. You're not flipping it. You're going to stay here. This is 20 years. So let's look at that. So this is what we're thinking.

00:35:44:02 - 00:36:10:29
Paul Hawken: This is what we're doing, so forth. We already know. You know, in terms of moving from one of the things I did recently is to call up my utility company and say, please remove your gas meter. It's on my property. I use no more natural gas, you know? But the thing is, my energy use went down and it's powered by solar on my roof and some renewable energy I buy from.

00:36:11:02 - 00:36:48:05
Paul Hawken: Through PGE, but basically costs went down and so did air pollution. I mean, we know that burning natural gas in the home is like having living with a smoker. And so when that may not be an issue for some people, but I'm just saying is there's so many ways to look at this so that they can understand the overall cost, both in terms of, you know, over the lifespan of the house and then over the cost in terms of human well-being or maintenance, you know, or the hassle of something or, you know, and so I think that's the way you have to talk to them.

00:36:48:06 - 00:37:11:25
Paul Hawken: You know, I mean, obviously you get issues, you know, in terms of cost. But what we're seeing now is that many of, you know, solar, for example, is really cheaper than any other form of installed electricity. It may not be, you know, if you live near the Columbia River, you know, is so cheap, you know, per kilowatt hour.

00:37:11:25 - 00:37:32:24
Paul Hawken: But it's it's not true. It is true in other places where it's, you know, 20, 25, 26, $0.27 a kilowatt hour. So just to have that sort of, you know, intelligence and awareness, you know, of a place and person and, you know, cost is is really the way I would do it, you know, and then comfort to of course.

00:37:32:27 - 00:37:52:13
Mike Collignon: Well, and that's, that's a great lead into to Mike's question, not me, Mike, because he's an installation contractor and and he's asking the very, I think, forward thinking question really, of how do insulation contractors get the message across in a language that is understood?

00:37:52:15 - 00:37:54:22
Paul Hawken: Do the math.

00:37:54:25 - 00:37:55:25
Mike Collignon: Yeah, really.

00:37:55:26 - 00:38:20:11
Paul Hawken: I mean, it's just do the math. And and that's what people want to see. They don't want to be convinced to buy something. They want to be invited to save money. And basically, you know, I mean, interest rates have gone up. But I mean, for the last, you know, how many years, you know, you could get like, what, three quarters of a percent interest return on your capital?

00:38:20:13 - 00:38:41:25
Paul Hawken: You were losing your capital right now, you know, you can get a little bit more. But inflation is higher than interest rates. And so your money is going down in value. So when you do the math for home and of course obviously you have to be able to calculate it in a fairly effective way and so forth, which are finding is the return on on on capital.

00:38:41:25 - 00:39:06:27
Paul Hawken: Return on investment is better than any other investment they have. And investing in your home actually is it actually is consistent. It doesn't move up and down with the stock market, you know, or bond prices. And so that's where I would go. Right, right, right. For the the area where everybody lights up, you know, more money, less money, make money.

00:39:06:29 - 00:39:36:07
Paul Hawken: I mean we do you know and so and it's true, you know, but I think it's hard to go in and say it's the right thing to do for the planet. It is, of course, the right thing to do for the planet. But that's this. That comes with it, if you will. But most people can't afford or justify doing it unless they see the numbers, and the numbers are good in this country.

00:39:36:10 - 00:39:38:10
Paul Hawken: North or south.

00:39:38:12 - 00:40:13:04
Mike Collignon: And that's a great leading to the next question we have. Have you found progress in valuing regenerative regenerative design in finance? Because the questioner, Michael, he says, we try to work in every project to make the right decisions, and we often find ourselves limited by developers who claim that they can only get financing for the status quo. And I remember Paul real quickly, the when the Save act was first.

00:40:13:06 - 00:40:30:17
Mike Collignon: Proposed in Congress. It was ten, 12 years ago, and it still hasn't passed yet. And it was trying to value, you know, the energy efficiency of a home. So have you seen any kind of progress on the finance side of things with regenerative design?

00:40:30:19 - 00:41:02:08
Paul Hawken: No. That's policy. And I and I and policy is dictated by I called tainted regulators and I wouldn't say they're corrupt. I would say they're tainted. They're tainted by their background, by their education, by where they came from, by which industries they are friends with. They, you know, and you see that in California. California is a very progressive at the state with the Democratic governor.

00:41:02:08 - 00:41:46:20
Paul Hawken: But you go to some of the commissions and, you know, you want to roll your eyes. You just like, come on, you know, I mean, it's just so retro and backwards and status quo and not innovative. And what we do talk about, by the way, in Nexus is policy, because that's a really important area. And I don't think people can overestimate the impact of even a single person, whether it's to a congressperson, a commission, a politician, a corporate CEO, whatever, that they won't get feedback necessarily like, oh, thanks, you know, we're going to change this.

00:41:46:21 - 00:42:32:14
Paul Hawken: But, you know, I have been on the other side, you know, listening to C-suite talk about what the public feels and things and a relatively small amount of people actually sends tremors in corporate always and in. But on policy, it's where we have a very corrupt political system now and, and it's been, you know, gerrymandered which, you know, came out of the Civil War and, and so we and the voices that we hear because of our media are the ones that light up our amygdala, that are based on.

00:42:32:15 - 00:43:00:05
Paul Hawken: So people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, get a lot of coverage. Why, why, why do you cover somebody who's saying things that are inappropriate, that are incorrect, you know, and that are accusatory and unkind? Well, because we not her, we the response to threat ten times more often and better and quicker than it does respond to promise or opportunity.

00:43:00:06 - 00:43:27:23
Paul Hawken: And so that's the political system we have. And it can only be changed by people. And it does is by voting. But also it's by, you know, direct contact. And the thing about direct contact with policymakers or commissions or representatives or whatever is you learn to what they think, how they're thinking and so forth. And it's important that we do this with respect as opposed to blame is one that we do this with understanding.

00:43:27:24 - 00:43:48:10
Paul Hawken: You know, we have two layers in one mouth. So that gives you the ratio of what we should be doing. You know. And so because I feel like, you know, we haven't in the climate movement really listened so well as so much as we've been. Right. But anytime you write, you make somebody wrong by default, you know, because they have a different view, even if you're not talking to them.

00:43:48:11 - 00:44:07:17
Paul Hawken: And so I think in these areas of policy, you just have to work at it, work at it, work at it. And, and you know, and I don't know what happened. You know, corporations are actually much more agile now really. I you see tremendous change on a corporate level. I think, you know, they so many of them get it.

00:44:07:18 - 00:44:28:12
Paul Hawken: You know, they really do get it. Not just doing it. It used to be, with all due respect to corporations, that sustainability is where you get your social license punch, you know, and we knew it every couple of years. Oh, we're hearing we're listening. We're doing this. You know we generation and what's going on with in terms of that that's that emissions and so forth.

00:44:28:13 - 00:44:44:11
Paul Hawken: Now is corporations in many, many, many cases you're going, oh my gosh, we have a problem. It's our problem. It's everybody's problem. Ran this together. And so you're seeing a rapid innovation change on a corporate level. But we haven't seen that on a political level.

00:44:44:14 - 00:45:15:24
Mike Collignon: Well so it's interesting you bring up the the politics because that was a question that I was going to ask was we're an election year in the US. And so regarding language, you know, you focus a lot on language. How do you see progress being made at the national level in such a polarized country? And when I'm talking about progress, progress towards towards regenerative design and regeneration, how does that work?

00:45:15:28 - 00:45:39:29
Paul Hawken: Yeah, I think well, two things. One is, I mean, politics has always been based on fear who can make somebody more afraid. And so if you can make if you think if you can pin that fear thing on your candidate, you know better than their opinion on you. You have a chance of winning because people vote fear. And we've known that for a long time.

00:45:39:29 - 00:46:05:01
Paul Hawken: And and so okay, that's that's a huge problem. But let me go back to this thing of individual. And you know, we talked about BP came out with this thing in 2001, Oliver Mather about with your carbon footprint, you can calculate it, the idea being that we're just an oil company that produces gasoline. You're driving. So, you know, you're the problem.

00:46:05:08 - 00:46:21:18
Paul Hawken: I say see it that way. But that was the implication. You know, we're not causing anything. You know, we're just meeting your needs. Okay. And so there has been all for a long time this idea that somehow individuals can make the difference. You know, you can make the difference is what you can do. But it was like cold water and washing machine.

00:46:21:18 - 00:46:41:23
Paul Hawken: And we do, you know, recycle. And, you know, I mean don't drive as drive last, you know, and I mean these things which are sort of almost proverbial, you know, like, you know, great, you know, and I think every individual knew that they were inadequate to the task at hand, and they felt sort of disempowered by these things.

00:46:41:23 - 00:47:07:23
Paul Hawken: They do them, they understand, they make an impact. But they knew there wasn't sufficient. And so what we did is we turned to government. We turned to the conference of the parties, to the IPCC. We turned to these international colloquia. We turn to these aggregations of elected political leaders and so forth. You know, and said, look at we need you to do this, to change, to affect policy, to pass laws to, you know, and so forth.

00:47:07:23 - 00:47:28:23
Paul Hawken: And some have been for sure and so forth. But the fact is that we see that's ineffective, whether it's Trump or the, you know, the build back better being blocked. You know, it doesn't make any difference. You know, we're frozen. And what that has occluded for people is, was caused. People feel dispirited and despair and so forth. But we've left out agency.

00:47:28:23 - 00:47:49:02
Paul Hawken: And that's what I was talking about again, with Nexus and so forth. Nexus and regeneration is a how to it's about know how. It's not about what to what to is drawdown. Here's what we can do. You know but you don't know how to do it. We generation and nexus and regeneration is about how it's about how and every level of agency.

00:47:49:02 - 00:48:15:24
Paul Hawken: Because every level of agency and change in in in the agency starts with an individual. So if you change your company, if you change your neighborhood, if you change your community, if you make change in your church or your classroom, if you make a change in your city, in your town, and so forth. And it always comes from an individual who becomes two, becomes four, becomes a I mean, that's where all change comes from.

00:48:15:24 - 00:48:34:07
Paul Hawken: So I think that's the part of individuation. Individuation, you know, of the problem and the solution got wrong and so forth. It's just you stayed an individual, you know, your home, you know, buying, shopping, doing that not, you know, okay, I'm not going to buy from Amazon or I will buy from Amazon. You know, I mean it's like it's so confusing, you know.

00:48:34:07 - 00:48:55:05
Paul Hawken: And yet on an on a more aggregated level it's not confusing at all. And that is where you can make really significant changes. And so we look to these big institutions to make these sweeping changes, you know, and think, oh God, I'm relieved. You know, something's happening and they're not going to do it. The government is the last to change.

00:48:55:05 - 00:49:27:16
Paul Hawken: It follows. It never leads. And so we have to be the leaders. And that leadership means that we connect. And the way you heal a system, an immune system, an ecosystem, a social system is to connect more of it to itself. So the real the most important place where you can make change with respect to greenhouse gases and climate is in your community.

00:49:27:18 - 00:49:53:07
Paul Hawken: Crazy, right? Not in Washington DC, because you can actually make change now. You do it in a way where in those areas where the thing about communities and the thing about cities and why you see such interesting mayoral contests and so forth. Is it even mayors who are on different sides of the political spectrum understand what Unisys on that level is far more important than what divides us.

00:49:53:08 - 00:50:11:14
Paul Hawken: When you get to aggregate national levels, then you get to fear mongering, you know, and making it, you know, making people afraid of trans children, for God's sakes. You know, I mean, we have things to deal with in the world that is not a problem. And yet that's being used. So you can do that on a national level.

00:50:11:14 - 00:50:44:02
Paul Hawken: Any mayor who ran on that basis would be laughed at. It's just like you're not even serious. We have a city to run. Things are wrong here. Things need to be fixed. You need to be the person that helps us work that out and listens to us. So that level of is the level where we can get things done, and we can work with people who see the world differently, you know, and we may not agree with, but we do agree about living together, you know, in this place about water, air and traffic and noise and jobs and policy and schools and children and health and so forth.

00:50:44:09 - 00:50:55:01
Paul Hawken: There's where we can come together. And that's where the major, major impetus for reversing global warming has to arise is arising, by the way.

00:50:55:04 - 00:51:17:22
Mike Collignon: So I want to get to one last question, if I can, Paul, because it gets to your comment there about agency and what we can do in our community. And it's somewhat specific, but it may be applicable across our audience, comes from our friend Kim Shanahan. He's he's mentioning that gas companies, you talked about wanting your gas meter removed because you don't use it anymore.

00:51:17:25 - 00:51:40:22
Mike Collignon: Gas companies often do not charge developers to bring the pipes into new subdivisions. So then if you think about it, developers actually save money by going to all subdivisions. So his question again, a question towards this topic of agency is how can that paradigm be changed easily?

00:51:40:23 - 00:52:01:16
Paul Hawken: Again, it's the same as the insulation person, which is do. The math is that even though the gas meter is there, right, ready to go and they probably already bought the appliances, which is even worse, you know, but you know, the water heater and, you know, the stove and the heating system, right? All three. And that's what I changed in my house is all three of them okay.

00:52:01:19 - 00:52:29:14
Paul Hawken: But the but it still pencils out. It really does. You know. And because you use less energy now look at right now with natural gas prices, it's a very teachable moment, you know, because and is it going to go down when you never know. I mean, fossil fuel prices are like this for 100 years. And so who's to say?

00:52:29:15 - 00:53:00:17
Paul Hawken: But I do feel like that is basically an unfair advantage. There's no question about it. And I feel like you need to go upstream. Upstream is the developers, you know, which is they need an incentive to offer homes that are electrified. Now, it's I mean, it's on a blueprint, you know, so they haven't built it yet. And that option is a really interesting option.

00:53:00:17 - 00:53:23:29
Paul Hawken: If people right now in California, in some places you don't even have the option. You get solar on your house, no question. You know, if it's if it's newly built, that's just so. It's not like, oh gee, should we get solar? The same thing is going to apply and should apply with electrification on all levels. And the only way to do that, again is to convince, to educate, to share, to talk.

00:53:24:07 - 00:53:32:18
Paul Hawken: I don't think developers are against it. It's just a matter of them not being aware of options.

00:53:32:21 - 00:53:50:23
Mike Collignon: Well, Paul, I mean, it was so good to see you again. I could talk with you for quite a while, and I wish we could get to more questions, but I want to be respectful for the rest of our schedule and not throw it off. Too bad and give Sarah mad at me. But I did want to give you the chance to just make a final closing comment if you had one.

00:53:50:25 - 00:54:20:26
Paul Hawken: Yeah, I think the the regeneration to me, and it sounds silly, but it shouldn't be is about falling in love with the world, you know, and coming from that place as opposed from fear. Or, you know, it's easy looking at the science to feel fearful, you know, I mean, it doesn't take much of imagination, but to change our language, to say, get rid of the lingo or the jargon, nobody understands.

00:54:20:26 - 00:54:53:18
Paul Hawken: That's going to be what 15C is anyway. So stop using that term, you know, and and talk about it in a way that's accessible and talk about it in a way where it comes from a sense of care and love for the other person, for a neighbor, for people, for children, for place, for culture, you know, and really to that's the big arms that we need to wrap around this movement to reverse global warming and to create a planet is going to sustain us far into the future.

00:54:53:21 - 00:54:57:29
Mike Collignon: Thank you Paul. That was awesome. So good to see you again, my friend.

00:54:58:00 - 00:54:59:21
Paul Hawken: And yeah.

00:54:59:23 - 00:55:01:29
Mike Collignon: Hope all is well with you. All right.

00:55:02:05 - 00:55:04:12
Paul Hawken: I just got to. Okay. Thanks so much. Okay.