Selling Trust in a Transactional World

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Sara Gutterman: Welcome to the Valuation Metric podcast. This is a podcast about the risks, rewards, roadblocks, and revelations reshaping the way that we measure worth. I'm your host, Sara Gutman, CEO of Green Builder Media, North America's leading media company focused on green building and sustainable living across our economy. A quiet truth is becoming impossible to ignore. We're measuring value using tools designed for a world that no longer exists.

00:00:34:24 - 00:01:15:20
Sara Gutterman: We reward size over substance first, cost over full cost transactions, over lived experience. And nowhere is that misalignment more visible or more costly than in housing. Today's guest sits at a fascinating intersection of this conversation. Dennis Webb didn't start in home building. He started in retail, selling suits, running stores and mastering merchandizing and customer satisfaction. Then he crossed an unexpected bridge into housing, bringing key learned lessons with him as vice president of operations in Arizona based builder Fulton Homes.

00:01:15:21 - 00:01:59:03
Sara Gutterman: Dennis helped lead one of the most consequential shifts in modern home building turning energy efficiency, indoor air quality and healthy homes from niche ideas into mainstream business strategy. Fulton Homes was the first builder in the country to build every home to Energy Star version 3.0, and earned the inaugural Indoor Air Plus Leader of the year award. Dennis has now captured that journey in his book From Blue Suits to Green Homes, which reads part memoir, part playbook and quietly poses a radical question what if housing adopted the same rigor around value, experience and trust that retailers embrace?

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Sara Gutterman: Dennis, welcome to the valuation metric.

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Dennis Webb: Thank you. Sara it's pleasure being here. Your words are.,

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Sara Gutterman: Of course. Well, you live up to them. So, Dennis, you spent two decades in fashion retail before moving into home building, an industry that traditionally prides itself on being very different from retail. What did the homebuilding world underestimate about what retail actually understands?

00:02:26:19 - 00:02:53:00
Dennis Webb: I think the main the main differentiation, the main difference is the fact that retailers look at their customers as the most important part of their operation, and where home builders do not. The home builders tend to look at their product that they build and their stock price and things of that nature as the most important thing. In many times forgetting the retail buyer at all.

00:02:53:03 - 00:03:09:21
Sara Gutterman: So in your book, From Blue Suits to Green Homes, you talk about fitting rooms, merchandizing and customer psychology. What surprised you when you realized how transferable or perhaps nontransferable those lessons were to selling homes?

00:03:09:24 - 00:03:35:23
Dennis Webb: Well, the fortunate thing was, is everyone in Fulton Homes came out of the retail business, so it wasn't like I was completely swimming upstream. So we all had an idea. We all worked for the same company and in Los Angeles. It was called Eagle Suns men's clothing chain. We had 33 stores and we knew how that operated. And we were very successful, in fact, that that operation launched Fulton Homes.

00:03:35:23 - 00:03:47:17
Dennis Webb: And without that, that impetus on customer satisfaction and the customer coming first, full knowns wouldn't have been nearly as successful.

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Sara Gutterman: So retail really lives or dies on trust, repeat business and reputation. But let's be honest, our housing sector often lives on scarcity and urgency. How did that cultural contrast shape your approach at Fulton Homes?

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Dennis Webb: When I first came into Fulton Homes, I thought, this is a real archaic industry. The technology was not even there. We were handwriting contracts. There wasn't any talk. There was no websites at that time. It was just it was incredible. I just thought it was amazing that, you know, we could do as much as we were doing. You know, we were doing 8 or 900 homes a year by accident, you know, and all you had to do was open up a few models and not piss off the customers too much and you'll be successful, you know?

00:04:36:26 - 00:04:55:07
Dennis Webb: And I thought, well, there's got to be more to this. The buying experience was not a great experience, not only with us, but with everybody. And I said, well, what can we do to help change that? And that idea of trust and transparency was really at the forefront at that point.

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Sara Gutterman: Fulton Homes didn't just dabble in energy efficiency. You went all in becoming the first builder in the country to build every home to Energy Star version 3.0, and that's a bold operational and marketing move. So what convinced you that that wasn't just the right thing, but really a smart business strategy?

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Dennis Webb: Well, this was right after the crash of 2006, and everyone was kind of scrambling to figure out how to differentiate themselves from the competition. And we thought that there was many ways we could do it. But probably the most important and impactful was energy efficiency. So energy efficiency really was kind of at that point, it was pretty much energy Star.

00:05:37:28 - 00:05:57:28
Dennis Webb: The other the other groups in that formed yet either zero or indoor air plus or water sense, they weren't quite around. So we kind of went head on with the energy star, and we worked with the people of Energy Star and they were great. John Pass and Dean gamble, and actually they were just a pleasure to work with.

00:05:57:28 - 00:06:24:23
Dennis Webb: And I said, what if we kind of kind of took the bull by the horns and said, let's do a version 3.0 a year and a half before anyone else, and that'll help us understand how it works. It'll help the manufacturers get their products right, and it'll help the installers, particularly in air conditioning, really kind of figure out what they need to be doing, because we thought that 3.0 was going to be the real strong point.

00:06:24:28 - 00:06:37:04
Dennis Webb: They turned out to be, but we were we had it. We were doing 3.0 a year and a half before it actually became the official version of Energy Star.

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Sara Gutterman: And how did that translate into your sales strategy? Did your buyers value that and did they purchase your homes because of your approach to higher performance, which yields lower operating costs.

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Dennis Webb: To them? Some did and then others didn't. You know, it was a matter of training our sales associates who were marvelous people. We have the best of sales associates in the industry, and as a matter of training them and really making that energy efficiency a value to the customer, and it really translated into lower energy bills and more comfort and things like that.

00:07:16:21 - 00:07:38:21
Dennis Webb: And once we got past that hurdle, then it became much easier. And then what happened in this market and Phoenix was a very competitive market, is when we finally kind of started going out and saying, okay, we're building all our we were advertising and we were building on our still in our homes with that Energy Star 3.0. All the other guys said, well, we better start doing that because they're doing it.

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Dennis Webb: And so we kind of led the pack. And as it turned out, Phoenix became the number one energy star market in the country.

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Sara Gutterman: That's fantastic. You started a movement. Exactly. So, you know, many builders still today treat sustainability as a cost center or a risk. But Fulton Homes has treated it as a brand, driver and value differentiator. So what did you see early on. And then what do you see today as the business case for performance, wellness, even energy independence in the home that you're able to incorporate internally, but then also message externally most effectively.

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Dennis Webb: We have the advantage of being local. And so with that, we have a tremendous advertising budget compared to the public's. And we can say things that they can't. And just there's a lot of advantages. And so we were able to not only look at energy efficiency as a, as a platform, but community service and philanthropy and giving away, you know, billions of dollars to educational facilities in Phoenix.

00:08:51:29 - 00:09:25:01
Dennis Webb: And it was a matter of putting it all together. And it wasn't just one thing. So the educational philosophy, philosophy of philanthropy and energy efficiency and healthy homes and all that became part of the brand, and that helped. And then we were very honest with our customers, and we told them, like how much stuff caused before they bought the house, and other builders weren't doing that, and we just thought it was the way to go because we looked at it back in the retail businesses.

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Dennis Webb: What do our customers want? What are they looking for? And I think they're looking for builders that they have a high degree of trust. And with that trust, if you use transparency as the vehicle to get there, then you'll achieve your goal.

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Sara Gutterman: In this podcast, I talk a lot about value versus values based decision making. And in retail, just as an example, retail doesn't sell fabric. It sells how an outfit makes you feel, how it fits your life, how it signals your identity. Whereas, you know, again, housing really still just sells square footage. Why is that such a missed opportunity?

00:10:07:17 - 00:10:32:01
Dennis Webb: Because they don't put the retail customer first and they don't understand how that works. You're right, we don't. We're looking at dollars per square foot or something of that, which means absolutely nothing. How does the house live? How does it make you feel? What is your your pride, ownership, ownership when it comes to curb appeal? How do you feel just working with that builder?

00:10:32:03 - 00:10:58:21
Dennis Webb: If you're if you're living in a house for many years, is that builder a pillar of the community like we are versus a public builder? That is pretty much a non-existent name. So I think we have a tremendous advantage. We're able to take all these elements and look at cause marketing and things like that as a vehicle in which to build that trust with each customer.

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Sara Gutterman: I think you just hit the nail on the head right there. Fulton really embodies the nexus between value and values. You utilize values, whether it's home buyer values or community values to drive value meaning business profitability, enhanced brand reputation, differentiation, etc..

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Dennis Webb: And the outreach is so important. So people want to feel good about the house they live in. They want to feel good about their builder. They want to feel good about their community. When we do all our advertising, we don't talk about, okay, come by a phone home, we tell about what we do for the community and how we give back to the community.

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Dennis Webb: And no other builder does that. And so we're in a tremendous spot to be able to really take our message. And it's been the same thing with energy efficiency.

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Sara Gutterman: So pretend for a minute that I am a large builder CEO.

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Dennis Webb: I hear that.

00:12:03:26 - 00:12:27:13
Sara Gutterman: And I come to you and I say, look, we are actually building homes that are healthier, more resilient, cheaper to operate, but buyers don't seem to pay for it. What would you tell me that I'm getting wrong in my messaging and from a marketers lens? Why is the industry struggled so much to tell the proper story, to get the actual value for high performance homes that they deserve.

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:54:05
Dennis Webb: Because they don't understand what that buyer and that customer is looking for? It isn't just that $50 a month are going to save on their electric bill. It's how the home makes you feel and how how you operate within your own sphere and your family, and how you kind of look at your home as a as a castle and how you kind of just say, this is this is me.

00:12:54:05 - 00:13:12:08
Dennis Webb: This is this is what I do is it's more than just a dollar per square foot or something of that nature. It's really it's it's it's the internal part of, you know, how do I live in this house? And one of my memories and one of the things that I can take away with a great experience.

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Sara Gutterman: So beyond the messaging, you mentioned a little earlier about the friction involved in the buying experience and that Fulton has really tried to remove that friction. How have you done that? Because right now the homebuying experience is pretty stressful, especially when we when we survey our cognition. Excuse me, utilize our cognition smart data to survey our younger audiences.

00:13:37:10 - 00:13:46:19
Sara Gutterman: They're kind of overwhelmed by that home buying experience because, again, it's very stressful. So what does Fulton done that other builders can learn from to remove that friction?

00:13:46:20 - 00:14:16:13
Dennis Webb: I think the big thing is, is be honest with them, and we're the only builder I know of that will tell all of our buyers or would be buyers, how much the home is going to cost before they buy it. So we give them a printout and not open up an online portal that has all the prices of everything we offer, and we offer 2300 options, and many of our standard features are much better options than the the public guys have.

00:14:16:15 - 00:14:40:21
Dennis Webb: And we point that out as well because we show everyone what we carry online. So even before they buy the house, they have a total idea of what that thing costs. They see pictures of it, they see descriptions of it, they see how it works, they see how it lives and things like that. So everything in their house is pretty much explained to them before they even buy the house.

00:14:40:23 - 00:15:13:13
Dennis Webb: And then before they go to the design center, we have them come to our design center beforehand on a browse nine every other Thursday night for three hours and work with salespeople and designers and things like that. We've also put that whole idea of transparency into our sales presentation. So the sales part, the sales person, is so important when it comes to delivering the idea of what the house is going to cost, what's going to include, what are the energy features, how the spray foam works and all that stuff.

00:15:13:13 - 00:15:22:05
Dennis Webb: And so we do a great job of training those people and making sure that they can communicate that with their customers.

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Sara Gutterman: So all of our cognition data shows exactly what you just said, which is that home buyers in every generation are looking more at full cost and full value of home ownership, and that they're more interested in understanding those long term costs, operating costs, not just utilities, but insurance costs. Can I get lower insurance premiums? Can I know what are my maintenance costs going to be, rather than just understanding that upfront cost, because they're really understanding that difference between full and first cost.

00:15:58:16 - 00:16:17:11
Dennis Webb: We're particularly seeing it with millennial buyers there. They really want to know everything that's going on, and they want to have a clear idea of what the total cost of ownership is going to be. And we're honest with them. We tell them so many times that they're looking to our competitors. They don't even know how much stuff cost in the house.

00:16:17:13 - 00:16:43:08
Dennis Webb: If they want to do extra, we'll offer extra filter options or things like that. We can show how that works and what it will do. And you know how the healthy home works and how by having indoor air plus just along with would help with that. That whole aspect among the standing, the comfort of my house and the healthy home and how that and how that works.

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Sara Gutterman: So that leads me to another question. I want to pivot and talk a little bit more about the concepts in your book, because one of the most powerful ideas in your book is that the sale isn't the end of a relationship with a buyer, it's really just the beginning. How should that mindset change how homes are designed, built, sold, and supported?

00:17:05:24 - 00:17:29:23
Dennis Webb: So just like in the retail business, if you don't have repeat customers, you're not going to make it. The builders don't need repeat customers and in fact they don't even encourage it. So you have a so you treat your customers badly and it doesn't really matter because they're not going to buy another home. Very few people buy more than one new home in their lifetime.

00:17:29:24 - 00:17:51:19
Dennis Webb: Okay, well, we turned that upside down and we said, well, why don't we market this? And why don't we try to make people by several homes? They're in different stages. You might have a young couple all of a sudden they need a bigger house because they're starting a family, and we'll build 3 or 4 different series in the same community, and we'll market that customer.

00:17:51:19 - 00:18:09:09
Dennis Webb: And we treated them right, which we think we have, and they've had a great experience. They'll stay in that same community and buy a larger house from us. And so we purposely say, okay, I'm going to have a smaller house, I'm going to have a medium house and a large house and an extra large house, and we'll we'll market that.

00:18:09:09 - 00:18:30:18
Dennis Webb: Customer and salespeople are all working on the same platform, and we might be in a community for five years, six years, maybe even eight years. And because we'll have 2000 houses in there, well, all of a sudden they can just do whatever they want. Plus the fact they don't have to move, they they don't have to move communities.

00:18:30:18 - 00:18:49:00
Dennis Webb: They just move across the street or down the street a little bit. The schools are the same. It's close for employment and things like that. So the idea of repeat customers is just so common for us and it's not uncommon. We have many, many customers that by 3 or 4 homes from us. And then and the same thing is happening.

00:18:49:00 - 00:19:12:01
Dennis Webb: So okay, the kids have gone. They made living in a 3500 square foot, two story house. And then I leave this, you know, the kids are gone there. They're starting their own families and we need to move down. And so we need a 1800 square foot single storey house. But they still want nice things just so we'll give them a smaller house, but it's less upkeep, easier to work and things like that.

00:19:12:01 - 00:19:16:12
Dennis Webb: And so we really look at that customer as a customer for life.

00:19:16:14 - 00:19:31:15
Sara Gutterman: It's really interesting how you've leveraged the living experience to drive referrals, brand loyalty, long term profitability in a way that I think the industry has really underestimated and undervalued and under deployed.

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Dennis Webb: I'm not so sure that public companies like their customers.

00:19:35:21 - 00:19:37:12
Dennis Webb: I think they don't want it.

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Sara Gutterman: In secretive housing.

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Dennis Webb: Right? Yeah.

00:19:39:15 - 00:20:00:20
Dennis Webb: And the reason they don't like them is because they're they think they're they're a pain and they're demanding and they think they're going to sue them and things like that. So they're very defensive. So that's why that's why they don't build like new build homes. They'll build all spec. So instead of having to be with them the first 6 or 7 months, the only with them for a few weeks, and they can handle that.

00:20:00:20 - 00:20:11:14
Dennis Webb: And they don't train their salespeople to be able to handle their own customers. So what difference does that make? So they're not really set up for repeat customers at all.

00:20:11:16 - 00:20:36:14
Sara Gutterman: Let's talk a little bit about where housing needs to go next. We've entered this time of rising climate risk, volatile energy prices, historically low buyer confidence, perhaps because of the things that you've just mentioned. From your vantage point, what will separate the builders who thrive from those who struggle in the next two, five, ten, 20 years?

00:20:36:16 - 00:21:04:04
Dennis Webb: I think the builders has to have the mindset that the customers, that center of the universe, and that's the most important part of their business and get away from what the stock price is or what the product is, and falling in love with some new technology or something like that, and really concentrate on basics and taking care of your customer and being completely transparent with them and being honest with them and getting what they want, giving them what they want.

00:21:04:05 - 00:21:24:29
Dennis Webb: Just ask them what they want. The simplest things I learned a long time ago was find out what the customer wants and give it to them. And when I say that, they go, well, we can't do that. I know, you know, there's all these reasons why they can't. Well, they can, okay, we've proven that. But I think that once the customer sees that you care, you know, that's the difference.

00:21:25:07 - 00:21:45:14
Dennis Webb: The other guy, they can't see that this guy cares because they don't care. They really don't. I've gone to conferences where the public guys are getting up and they're talking about everything. And the thing they never talked about their customer. Why? Because they don't really like the customers. And until they like their customers, they're not going to be successful.

00:21:45:17 - 00:21:46:24
Sara Gutterman: Talk to me about.

00:21:46:25 - 00:22:23:10
Sara Gutterman: The evolution of customer demand and expectations in your experience, because obviously that's evolved over the last couple of decades since you've been in the housing sector, where how has it evolved, particularly over the last decade, and what are you seeing today with respect to top expectations, demands in general, but then maybe even categorize it into, you know, Boomers and Xers versus millennials and Zs, because I think those are kind of good separate buckets for those consumers.

00:22:23:11 - 00:22:23:23
Dennis Webb: I think.

00:22:23:23 - 00:22:47:02
Dennis Webb: I think the consumer has very, very high demands in kind of the retail business, really kind of presented that to them and said, okay, we're going to really take care of these customers. And Nordstrom became the legendary customer service giver, and they were the they were the model. Everyone that achieved, you know, and tried to tried to kind of copy and everything like that.

00:22:47:04 - 00:23:07:29
Dennis Webb: And then the car business went that way and they kind of looked at, you know, finding out what the customer wants and things like that. The homebuilders did not even they still don't do that, you know. So they haven't found that. Okay. And then there's always been a distrust between the salesman and the consumer. Consumer doesn't like the salesperson.

00:23:07:29 - 00:23:27:24
Dennis Webb: They're too picky and things like that. That's why. And we even do that we put up fences around their models when they're trapped fences. We trapped the people in the craziest thing in the world, you know? But but we do it and it's it's just a norm. And we keep doing the same things over and over again. But over the years, the customer has demanded a lot.

00:23:27:27 - 00:23:58:03
Dennis Webb: And most industries have really gone forth and done that extra mile. But then the internet came along and changed the way people buy things, and now they just assume not deal with that salesman because they were so bad. And unless you made that move to be able to be a customer service advocate, it was very difficult. And so you start like Nordstrom's is floundering compared to where they were just because of the habits of consumers today.

00:23:58:06 - 00:24:18:10
Dennis Webb: But in all the industry and there are other industries, the consumer is really smart and they're very educated and they know exactly what things are and they know what the price of things should be. And yet you have builders charging ridiculous prices for stuff, and they don't blink an eye, but they don't tell their customer what the price is so they can get away with it.

00:24:18:10 - 00:24:38:19
Dennis Webb: It's a crazy thing of the world. It's the only industry that you buy something and you don't know the price of it. I don't know any other industry. You do that except this business, except us, because we tell them what it costs. Sometimes, you know, we put our cards on the table and we say, well, that's not so bad, you know, and they, they, they expect it.

00:24:38:19 - 00:24:48:05
Dennis Webb: And it's just the way of doing it. And it's just a matter of making sure that customer understands that you care about them and you have that transparency.

00:24:48:08 - 00:24:49:05
Sara Gutterman: If there were.

00:24:49:05 - 00:25:05:12
Sara Gutterman: 2 or 3 key lessons from the retail industry, that and that could be sales or marketing or even operations that you could instill into the housing sector, what would those be?

00:25:05:14 - 00:25:36:07
Dennis Webb: Well, it's one of the selection in retail always has been very, very found on selection and and quality and good better best type things. And so really the whole merchandizing idea in, in homes has to do with it. And energy efficiency is merchandizing. It's instead of having, you know, bad insulation, you have spray foam insulation instead of having this, you have that.

00:25:36:07 - 00:25:56:08
Dennis Webb: And so you bring in fresh air into the home, as opposed to letting stale air stay in the home. And people have healthier homes because of that. So these are things that people want. And you just you give it to them, you know, and you point out and it's just a matter of finding out what that customer wants and giving it to them.

00:25:56:08 - 00:26:01:20
Dennis Webb: It's not that hard, you know. But builders struggle with that.

00:26:01:22 - 00:26:24:01
Sara Gutterman: Dennis, your career suggests something profound that value is not created by cutting corners or cutting costs, but rather it's created by understanding people deeply and designing systems that serve them over time. With that in mind, let me ask you the last couple of questions that I asked all of my podcast guests. I talk a lot about value per square foot.

00:26:24:02 - 00:26:27:01
Sara Gutterman: What does that concept mean to you?

00:26:27:03 - 00:27:11:02
Dennis Webb: Well, it's not just it's it's it's everything. It's it's it capitalizes everything, encapsulates and encapsulates all the dollars that you spend, but it also caps the things you don't spend, the things that are intangible. How about house makes you feel? Is that a higher value? If it looks better, if you have better options, if you have more comfort and you're not having to worry about things, breaking things like that, if you have a comfort zone that's really high, that's going to it's just so much more valuable than looking at that dollars per square foot figure, because the size of the home matter is the quality.

00:27:11:02 - 00:27:25:08
Dennis Webb: The whole matter is the energy. Efficiency is matter. Everything matters. But how it relates to that customer and how that customer feels about it, that's what is going to determine what they're going to pay for that house. That's value.

00:27:25:10 - 00:27:25:26
Sara Gutterman: If we're.

00:27:25:26 - 00:27:36:10
Sara Gutterman: Successful in shifting the valuation metric in the housing sector from price per square foot to value per square foot, what happens? Who wins and what gets disrupted?

00:27:36:12 - 00:27:51:29
Dennis Webb: The people that win, the people that are building a better house, and the people that are listening to their customers and they're giving their customers what they want, and the people that will lose, all of the people that don't do that, it's as simple as that.

00:27:52:01 - 00:28:07:02
Sara Gutterman: I love that. And my final question, if listeners could remember only one idea from you today, one seed, that might change the way that they value the world around them, what would that be?

00:28:07:04 - 00:28:32:09
Dennis Webb: I think it's how you want to live in your home and what your lifestyle is and how you feel about it, and what the comfort is and how other people are seeing your, your, your adventure there and how you and your family live in that house and really make it your future for memories and things that have just happened in your lifetime.

00:28:32:09 - 00:28:45:09
Dennis Webb: And it's a big part of your in a big part of your lives, and we have that opportunity to really make it better. We're we're building the American dream. Do it right. For God's sake.

00:28:45:11 - 00:29:09:11
Sara Gutterman: Dennis. Your story reminds us that value really comes from intention. Retail has taught you that customers know when they're being respected, when quality is real, and when a promise is empty. Home building at its best should do the same. So as we continue this journey towards value per square foot, Dennis's work offers a powerful offers, a powerful reminder to us all.

00:29:09:18 - 00:29:22:20
Sara Gutterman: Homes aren't commodities. Their lived experiences and how we market, measure and value them shapes everything that follows. If you want to rethink how value is created.

00:29:22:23 - 00:29:23:26
Sara Gutterman: Whether you're.

00:29:23:27 - 00:29:32:10
Sara Gutterman: Building homes, brands or careers, I highly recommend Dennis's book From Blue Suits to Green Homes. Dennis, where can they find your book?

00:29:32:12 - 00:29:34:19
Dennis Webb: It's on Amazon.

00:29:34:22 - 00:29:42:29
Sara Gutterman: Go to Amazon. Thank you so much, Dennis, for joining us on the valuation metric. Let's keep measuring what truly matters.

00:29:43:00 - 00:29:54:09
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