Making Carbon Visible in Housing

00:00:04:00 - 00:00:05:13
Sara Gutterman: And.

00:00:05:15 - 00:00:32:09
Sara Gutterman: Welcome to The Valuation Metric, a podcast about the risks, rewards, roadblocks, and revelations reshaping the way that we measure worth. I'm your host, Sara Gutman, CEO of Green Builder Media, North America's leading media company focused on green building and sustainable living across our economy. A quiet truth is underway and happening and unfolding the metrics that have guided decision making for decades.

00:00:32:11 - 00:01:01:24
Sara Gutterman: First cost price per square foot. Short term returns are proving to be insufficient, and a world that's now defined by climate risk, resource constraints, and rising expectations for performance. Nowhere is that misalignment more visible and perhaps detrimental than in housing, because homes aren't just financial assets, their long term systems systems that either protect or expose us physically, financially and environmentally.

00:01:01:25 - 00:01:36:05
Sara Gutterman: And yet, many of the most important dimensions of those systems, especially carbon, have largely remained invisible. But today's guest is helping to change that. Matthew Cooper is the senior vice president and chief operating officer at Peg, a company that's at the forefront of energy modeling, performance validation and building science. His work sits at the intersection of data design and decision making, helping translate building performance and carbon into something that the market can understand, measure, and ultimately value.

00:01:36:06 - 00:01:52:03
Sara Gutterman: So today, we're going to explore what happens when we make the invisible visible and how that shift could fundamentally reshape, reshape the way that arms are designed, built, financed and valued. Matthew, welcome to the valuation metric.

00:01:52:05 - 00:01:53:12
Matthew Cooper: Thank you for having me.

00:01:53:19 - 00:02:11:27
Sara Gutterman: Absolutely. So before Peg became a leader in energy modeling and performance validation, there was you, your story, your motivation. What first woke you up to the idea that homes could and really must be something more than walls, wires in a mortgage?

00:02:11:29 - 00:02:51:17
Matthew Cooper: Well, what's what's interesting is kind of the path that I took to end up here working in residential new construction. My background is was principally founded in commercial buildings and working in commercial, commercial and institutional buildings where there were much more robustly understood, designed and implemented ways of evaluating the built environment. So, you know, having standards and policies and practices already available to practitioners that are working in commercial buildings.

00:02:51:17 - 00:03:21:27
Matthew Cooper: But something that I was very used to and came up through the mechanical engineering side of things and then learned, you know, hands on how to do. Air balancing and sound evaluations and vibration analysis, valuations and buildings, and starting to look at really understanding the interaction between our, our, our workspace in most cases and the wellness of the people that are trying to to function within those spaces.

00:03:21:27 - 00:04:00:16
Matthew Cooper: And we had a lot of standards that were available to us, such as air diffusion, performance indexes, and ways that we evaluated what made people productive and comfortable and happy in their workspace. And we started to work with people that wanted to apply some of the things to their their own individual homes, and these were existing homes. So we started to adapt some of those practices to suit more closely the types of buildings that we would be working in that were residential.

00:04:00:16 - 00:04:29:23
Matthew Cooper: And over time, we developed the the same perspective for looking at new construction and in particular production, new construction, and not so much just existing homes. And that's that's really what kind of brought us there was how do we take things that we've already decided and understood in the engineering world and in the property management world, make good sense of how to measure our environment.

00:04:29:24 - 00:05:20:23
Matthew Cooper: Things like commissioning and retro commissioning and continuous commissioning and understanding how light impacts people inside of space. And not just temperature and not just what a thermostat says. And and really all of indoor air quality and indoor environmental quality. So looking at sound, looking at light drafts obviously humidity and temperature. But then also, you know, invisible things such as contaminants etc. and, and really taking those and apply them to the residential space and that that's really what kind of drove and continues to drive our passion is how do we continue to how do we continue to learn from the commercial world and pull those things into the residential world, where, as we all found during

00:05:20:23 - 00:05:33:18
Matthew Cooper: Covid, you know, five years ago, six years ago, you know, really changed our perspective of how important is it for us to be looking at more than just sticks and bricks? And you know what color paintings on the wall.

00:05:33:21 - 00:05:44:05
Sara Gutterman: Given that, is there a central principle that you refuse to compromise on when it comes to how housing is designed, constructed and valued?

00:05:44:07 - 00:06:04:07
Matthew Cooper: You know, I would say that that probably that the closest thing to a central principle for, for me and for, for PG is to to not let the way things have always been done stand in the way of implementing a better process.

00:06:04:09 - 00:06:18:00
Sara Gutterman: Let me ask you a little bit of an esoteric question. Do you believe that hangs and buildings have a moral obligation to protect, to nurture, to reduce harm? And if so, where does that responsibility live?

00:06:18:03 - 00:07:00:28
Matthew Cooper: Well, you know, I think that when you when you look at when you look at homes in particular and buildings in general, the first, the first perspective of what is, what is the point of that, that structure is shelter. And so to me, I feel that if you if you if you approach how you design, build and live in any building but in particular or home, if our first focus is on the fact that it is to provide shelter, then I believe that shelter encompasses wellness of the occupants and how the building interacts with its surroundings.

00:07:00:28 - 00:07:20:16
Matthew Cooper: And I believe that from a moral perspective, if we consider shelter first and everything else secondary, then that that does become a moral perspective that needs to be considered primary and not a secondary.

00:07:20:19 - 00:07:39:18
Sara Gutterman: Let's pivot a little bit and talk about rethinking risk and value. If you could wave a wand and rewrite one rule of one change, that would unlock higher performance, climate responsive, healthier homes and buildings at scale. What would that be?

00:07:39:21 - 00:08:03:27
Matthew Cooper: Well, I think back again to not letting not letting the way that we've always done things be, you know, the first driver. So when we when we find success working with different categories of customers, you know, we look at finding what element of the way that they've always done things is, is really providing no, no value to them.

00:08:03:27 - 00:08:29:19
Matthew Cooper: And it's actually detrimental to what they're trying to accomplish. And when I when I say that we have we have customers all across the spectrum, people that are building just production homes that their, their their entry level homes all the way up to people building, you know, very complex and costly custom homes to working with workforce housing, to looking at school housing.

00:08:29:20 - 00:08:56:16
Matthew Cooper: There's there's so many different parts of the industry that we touch that taking that perspective to each of them of, you know, we're going to find what part of what how you've been doing is something that if you could pivot away from that and learn to do it a different way, you would have so much better of an end result for the constituency that is your customer base.

00:08:56:18 - 00:09:21:15
Sara Gutterman: And when you have that conversation with your clients, whether it's the production builders or other stakeholders in the value chain, especially the the stakeholders right now that are doing things in a more traditional manner, let's say to that price per square foot valuation metric, as opposed to the value per square foot valuation metric, how do they respond? Are they getting it?

00:09:21:16 - 00:09:26:29
Sara Gutterman: Are they responding well or are they kind of sticking to the status quo?

00:09:27:02 - 00:10:07:18
Matthew Cooper: You know, it's interesting because it varies so much. You know, when when we first started working in the residential space, you know, our, our principal relationship was between our third party experts and people that were in construction, people that were actually building the structures. And, you know, it became more of a relationship of understanding, building science. And, you know, how building materials need to effectively interact with each other and how to start to make changes in even scopes of work for various trades, of changing what the expectation was for the end result.

00:10:07:18 - 00:10:47:11
Matthew Cooper: And how do you how do you push that through the entire food chain of all the different moving, moving compartments of how you how you build? And it started to shift over to we started to have more relationships with the design side or the sales side or the procurement side. And since each of those, those constituencies within the building community have different motivators, you know, you often have to find, you know, how, how do you resonate, what you're trying to provide to them in a manner that that fits into the narrative of where they tend to focus.

00:10:47:11 - 00:11:15:16
Matthew Cooper: And then when you're really lucky, you start to find customers that have an ethos that is consistent throughout all of those different departments of their operation, that they've got a unifying need and perspective that aligns with, you know, very closely what what we're trying to help them implement or perfect. And for us, those are the most rewarding customers to work with.

00:11:15:19 - 00:11:41:14
Matthew Cooper: But it's also equally rewarding to get to work with someone that started down here. And over over years, we've gotten them to up here, and they anticipated that being a painful process and what we've been able to successfully, you know, accomplish over, over time was that they they finally find themselves up here and they they didn't experience pain along the way.

00:11:41:14 - 00:12:14:05
Matthew Cooper: And that becomes kind of an moment for them of, you know, you were right. I, we were capable of doing it better all along. We just didn't we, we bought into the the old mantra of this is the way we've always done it, this is the way we're going to do it. And if you try to deviate from that, it's just going to fail and it's going to be more expensive, and there's no way we'll be able to, you know, adequately repeat it in a manner that allows us to to continue to grow as a business.

00:12:14:05 - 00:12:27:19
Matthew Cooper: So I think those are the those are kind of the things that, you know, really become, you know, a sought after reward of, you know, all the different types of customers that we work with.

00:12:27:21 - 00:13:07:25
Sara Gutterman: How do you think that we can be the most effective in terms of helping certain builders and other stakeholders that are perhaps pursuing a more traditional model, understand that performance, resilience, health and wellness, energy independence, all these things we talk decarbonization are not cost centers, but revenue drivers and family drivers. What, in your experience, has been the most effective messaging and just approach when it comes to helping facilitate that transition?

00:13:07:27 - 00:13:35:00
Matthew Cooper: Well, I think there's there's a couple of things that that are most effective in accomplishing that. The first is finding out, like I said, you know what? What is the what is the perspective that they have that, you know, has become kind of a hallmark of how they do business and then take that and use it as the opportunity to change the narrative.

00:13:35:00 - 00:14:16:07
Matthew Cooper: So if they if we come, if we come to meet with a builder and as they said, you know, all they're interested in is cost, then you know, one, they may not be a customer, a good customer fit for us, but it's a challenge. And we like challenges. So, you know, if we if we come to working with someone and that's their their sole focus, then we need to be able to take the conversation and shift it into helping them see how the changes that we're trying to help them accomplish are actually something that can have a positive impact to what, at this point in time, is most important to them, that being the cost

00:14:16:07 - 00:14:44:22
Matthew Cooper: of construction. So, for example, we we may come to a customer and say, well, you know, whether you're you're being mandated to change something or you're seeing increased interest from your, your, your buying community and something that you're not currently doing, and all you're focusing on is how much more it's going to cost you. Let's look at the the total lifecycle of of the what would happen if you made those changes.

00:14:44:22 - 00:15:14:20
Matthew Cooper: And the thing that's really cool about today is that we have such great modeling tools. We have such great programs that we can use to visually and mathematically, and from an accounting perspective, really show a builder how these changes can be cost effectively implemented into their process, so that maybe there's there is a higher first cost to that particular part of construction.

00:15:14:20 - 00:15:36:05
Matthew Cooper: But if you look at the entire picture of how, how is it going to impact the cost of ownership, how is it going to impact the the cost of operating the home, and how will that benefit the occupants of the home? And we look at if we do these things and we do them properly, how will that actually reduce the builders exposure to warranty expense?

00:15:36:06 - 00:16:10:18
Matthew Cooper: How will that actually boost the, the customer satisfaction of of their, their pool of buyers? And how will that change their the reputation for them as a business entity? And then if you consistently do that over time, where were you actually see the opportunity for making these improvements in what you're doing, whether it's materials or methods, how will that actually benefit you from a net, you know, cost perspective of operating your business?

00:16:10:18 - 00:16:45:10
Matthew Cooper: And I think that's the that's the magic of the tools that we have available to us. And as we start to look at new things as they come along, getting those tools in place and being able to reliably implement them into that process is what becomes really critical in effectively carrying that narrative forward until you get to the point, Sara, where something that you talked about, you know, and you seemed like you were out on the fringe 15 years ago today, builders at every level may look at something and say, yeah, no kidding.

00:16:45:10 - 00:17:10:21
Matthew Cooper: We need to do you know, we need to do water resistant barriers. You know, we need to properly flash windows or we need to shift away from, from this type of material that we use in a home. Or we need to invest in a better window. Whereas before, like I said, you know, some of those things were, you know, they were just, you know, esoteric ideas out there for a production level builder.

00:17:10:21 - 00:17:37:27
Matthew Cooper: And today they're just standard practice. So it's it's a constantly moving and improving, you know, world that we live in with, you know, with residential construction. And I think that that, that that story in and of itself becomes something that you can utilize when starting to, to now tackle the next thing like embodied carbon and say, well, remember when you said that was impossible and look at where you are today.

00:17:37:27 - 00:18:10:00
Matthew Cooper: So, you know, trust me when I say that, you know, this is a new process. This is a new this is a new way of understanding the value per square foot of the home. But just remember that back in the day when you thought that that just getting energy efficiency was going to be impossible for you, look at how far you've come and look at how far your trades have come, and look at how much happier your homeowners are, and look at where it's actually become a profit center for you versus, you know, a cost obstruction.

00:18:10:03 - 00:18:34:18
Sara Gutterman: Absolutely. We see the same thing. The conversation has evolved so much in the last couple of decades, but particularly even in the last five years, with respect, not just to building science and performance, but now we are having robust decarbonization conversations with builders and stakeholders of all kinds, which is actually a nice segue. I'd like to shift gears and talk about decarbonization.

00:18:34:18 - 00:18:40:25
Sara Gutterman: So for listeners who might not be familiar with the concept in the term, what is it and why does it matter?

00:18:40:26 - 00:19:07:27
Matthew Cooper: So we've we've had for a while now in the, in the residential, you know, new construction world, you know, an understanding of the relationship between energy efficiency and operational carbon. So, you know, there's been from from ResNet, there's been a carbon index available for for many years now, which is a direct corollary to the energy efficiency of the home and the makeup of the grid, where that home is built.

00:19:07:29 - 00:19:37:10
Matthew Cooper: So that part of, of carbon is kind of, you know, it's been there, people are aware of it. You know, some people are utilizing it to to drive change and to drive choices. When you look at things such as code cycles in, in states, as well as incentive programs from utility companies or, you know, states that are looking at having a definitive plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

00:19:37:10 - 00:20:11:26
Matthew Cooper: So that operational side of things have been around for a while. What is new for and again, this is, you know, like I said at the beginning, taking something that's been in existence in the nonresidential construction world and bringing it into it is that's the exciting part of something new for us. And so when we look at, you know, the operating cost of the home and how that correlates to greenhouse gas reduction opportunities, now we able to finally look at the embodied carbon.

00:20:11:26 - 00:20:41:29
Matthew Cooper: So, you know, in the in the institutional world and the industrial world embody carbon has been something that has been well understood. Well, you know, able to be evaluated, assessed and reported on because of having for products in whatever industrial componentry that that was being looked at. So to take that concept and move it into residential new construction has been a challenge.

00:20:41:29 - 00:21:11:05
Matthew Cooper: And that's something that has been an, you know, it's impeded us from being able to try to take the tools that we had available to us that were designed for evaluating embodied carbon in commercial applications. They really weren't that they really weren't that appropriate or that, you know, able to be smoothly implemented into assessing the same standard, the same type of things, same conditions in residential new construction.

00:21:11:07 - 00:21:39:22
Matthew Cooper: So, you know, we had to cobble together different tools out there in this in as a, as a practicing consultant to try to do that in the residential space. And so now we finally have the ResNet 1550 standard that is making it possible to look at embody carbon in a home and to include the mechanical, electrical and plumbing systems, which was a big important component of it that is very complex.

00:21:39:22 - 00:22:02:20
Matthew Cooper: So now we can now we have the ability to look at first day carbon. So we're looking at, you know, how what what was the greenhouse gas impact of everything that went into the keys being turned in the door the first day that that the new homeowner walks into their home and that carbon, you know, it is what it is on day one.

00:22:02:20 - 00:22:39:10
Matthew Cooper: It's never going to it's not going to get higher unless the homeowner starts to make changes and renovations and things like that. So now we have the ability to look at the first day, embody carbon, and then also look at the operational carbon and really be able to see what is the total carbon picture of a structure and be able to drive choices and change in how do we how do we pick and choose, you know, ways that we can reduce the embodied carbon without increasing the operational carbon and vice versa?

00:22:39:12 - 00:23:07:25
Sara Gutterman: The way that I like to think about it is decarbonization in the built environment is of paramount importance, just because it's such a conspicuously consumptive sector. If you think about, you know, there's what is that 40,000 products and, you know, just a tremendous amount of resource that goes into any home or building that's, you know, the typical American home, I think is the it has about, you know, 40,000 products that go in, goes into it.

00:23:07:25 - 00:23:35:17
Sara Gutterman: And, you know, embodied carbon is comprised of all the emissions from the very first raw material that's extracted for the very first product that goes into that house. Right? So it's, you know, extraction, transportation, manufacturing, packaging, more transportation and installation all the way up until the day that that house will just talk about houses right now is occupied.

00:23:35:17 - 00:24:06:27
Sara Gutterman: And then operational carbon occurs, you know, with respect to operating and the performance of the home, most of it's the energy use of the home once that house is occupied. So that's the difference between embodied and operational carbon. And you know, I think that that ResNet 1550 really feels like a turning point because it begins to measure, as you said, the embodied carbon in the materials and the in total, the total environmental load that on carries from day one.

00:24:06:28 - 00:24:50:16
Sara Gutterman: And it turns carbon into something that's abstract, into something that is quantifiable and comparable and ultimately financing. And once carbon becomes visible, so do kind of, let's say the risks and rewards. So insurance risk, durability risk, resale risk, but also the rewards of decarbonization or minimizing and then ultimately reducing or eliminating the carbon to become let's say regenerative or carbon positive, as we're starting to see with some materials, as they're absorbing more carbon in their long term life cycle than they're using during production.

00:24:50:16 - 00:25:15:10
Sara Gutterman: So I think that this ResNet 1550, again, it helps create something that is usable to change the valuation model. So talk a little bit about what 1550 actually measures. And I think that it is specifically applicable to single family and multifamily residential units.

00:25:15:15 - 00:26:01:15
Matthew Cooper: Correct. Yes. And so what the way the standard works is that there there are decisions that have to be made in, in the the use of it as a tool. And those decisions are based on available information. And and that's the other exciting thing I think about this is that for the first time, having a standard in place and in the the forthcoming tools that will be available to, to implement it will now afford manufacturers of materials and products a means by which they can make choices to about what products and do they want to bring to market and you know, for for what purpose.

00:26:01:15 - 00:26:29:14
Matthew Cooper: So where in the in the past we've we've not had a lot of, of, you know, insight into the embody carbon of a lot of the materials that go into a home. Now that there's a standard for how, how do you how do you calculate that? How do you assess it that will drive change in the manufacturing world to make choices about, you know, developing and bringing to market lower embodied carbon options?

00:26:29:20 - 00:27:16:06
Matthew Cooper: Because there's a tool that people can use reliably to, you know, to to consider the value proposition to them of do I use product A that has a higher end body carbon, or do I use product B that has a lower body carbon? And ultimately even how do I design my structures? And you know, when I look at the choices of how to design something, I now I can can, you know, overlay into the process of thoughts of how do I want to make a structure be more resilient to wind or rain or other other natural factors, but also take into the into consideration the the impact that has on the total embody carbon as

00:27:16:06 - 00:27:41:11
Matthew Cooper: well as the total as well as the operational carbon. That's those are those are things that haven't been able to be done before. So it's exciting to see that that that change will will be able to be, you know, enhanced as we go along with this, with this, this new standard. But the way that the standard works is when, when the assessor is looking at each component.

00:27:41:11 - 00:28:34:28
Matthew Cooper: Three let's just think, for example, of one one section of wall, if there are specific products being used or are being considered to be used in the construction of that wall, and those manufacturers have available on the marketplace for that product, then the assessor can use those. But since the challenges is that there are certain parts of construction that already have a lot of available, some things such as windows and things such as roofing materials, things that are very heat intensive in their manufacturing, have traditionally been more inclined to already have done and invested in having those done so where we have those actual CSS or can use those.

00:28:34:28 - 00:29:00:00
Matthew Cooper: But what's really fascinating and fantastic about 1550 is where you don't have now we have tables that have averages, that are industry averages that are recognized and accepted industry averages for those same products. So even if we don't have an EPD for a particular product, the assessor can still calculate the embodied carbon by the use of these tables.

00:29:00:00 - 00:29:31:23
Matthew Cooper: And I think that that will also become a driver for manufacturers is if they know that they have a product that offers a lower operational or lower body carbon EPD value than what the table has as an average, then that becomes a selling point for them to be able to say, well, if you don't want to go with the average that's in, you know, table 27 of the standard 1550, our product is 10% lower than the than the average of those products.

00:29:31:23 - 00:29:59:04
Matthew Cooper: And that's that becomes part of a value proposition story. So taking in that wall, you know, the the the dimensions of the wall, the amount of the materials that are in the wall based on the design and being able to use either actual or the tables of average industry values for those, those products we can create and come up with a total embodied carbon number for that section of wall.

00:29:59:04 - 00:30:24:20
Matthew Cooper: And essentially in the the the implementation of 1550, we go throughout the entire home doing that. So it's, it's it's every floor wall, every component that goes into the home that has a body carbon element to it can be calculated, and you can end up with a with a final total calculation. And that then can be used to draw out choices.

00:30:24:20 - 00:30:50:03
Matthew Cooper: So if you know if a builder is looking at either, you know it's important to them to start to reduce embodied carbon. They can make choices based on that. Or if they're building in a municipality that has a mandate or a requirement or a proper, that the that potential builders must demonstrate a prescribed amount of reduction, which we're starting to see in parts of parts of the country.

00:30:50:05 - 00:31:13:24
Matthew Cooper: Now. They have a way of creating that baseline and then making choices and then re, you know, refreshing that baseline with the new choices and start to look and see where can I meet my goal, whether it's an internal goal or a prescribed goal of reducing embodied carbon. And how do I make those choices of what am I going to select differently?

00:31:13:24 - 00:31:23:23
Matthew Cooper: Am I either my design or my my selection of materials that accomplish that reduction that I'm looking to accomplish?

00:31:23:26 - 00:32:03:23
Sara Gutterman: You talked a little bit about some of the benefits, and certainly to an assessor having a tool that is kind of credible and replicable. But let's talk let's extend the value proposition. How do you see ResNet 1550 being deployed into the marketplace in terms of providing enhanced value to builders, ultimately to homeowners? But you talked also about municipalities starting to pick up this standard as the basis for codes and mandates and regulations.

00:32:03:27 - 00:32:19:27
Sara Gutterman: Also, talk about that with respect to how that shifts and transform the market so that this isn't something that is a voluntary thing, but ultimately this becomes something that is required for builders and developers throughout the country.

00:32:19:29 - 00:33:23:01
Matthew Cooper: Yeah. Well, I think again, so if you look at the drivers, you know, you have for example, in the northeast US, you have mandates for using an optional path of calculating and demonstrating reduced embodied carbon can impact both code compliance as well as financial incentives from the municipality or from the state to to developers and builders. So that becomes a tool of, you know, just as they learned in energy efficiency of getting away from prescriptive construction and utilizing performance approach through modeling tools to make choices of of complying with code, but in a less in a more strategic thought process that allowed them to demonstrate that compliance through the use of better performance versus just

00:33:23:01 - 00:33:55:03
Matthew Cooper: following a prescriptive checklist. So the same thing can apply here in that type of market. What's interesting is that we also have very unique styles of construction that are different across the country. So for example, there was a 100 home study done by the Northeast Hers alliance in Massachusetts looking at 100 homes. These were homes that had been built in the last year to several years, that had had a hers rating done.

00:33:55:03 - 00:34:27:06
Matthew Cooper: And those first Raiders were involved in the in the program to go back to those homes, not physically, but go back to those homes in their models and then their plans and specifications and implement this 1550 process and develop a embody carbon illustration of those same homes. And what's interesting is that, you know, in that marketplace, there's a prevalence of homes to be built with basements.

00:34:27:06 - 00:34:52:04
Matthew Cooper: So when we look at embodied carbon, obviously concrete is one of the major components that represent a lion's share of the body carbon in a home. And so you've got choices of, you know, you know, you could have the same square foot home without a basement and significantly reduce your embodied carbon as a choice from a design perspective.

00:34:52:11 - 00:35:22:09
Matthew Cooper: And you could, if you believe that your buyer is simply not going to even come and look at a home that doesn't have a basement, because that's what's most common in that marketplace, then you make choices of, well, what type of concrete do we use? And can we go from a zero concrete to a 20% flash concrete or a 40% concrete and offer the same product that the consumer wants, but at a reduced embodied carbon perspective?

00:35:22:10 - 00:35:40:22
Matthew Cooper: So, you know, we see different parts of the country have different opportunities for us to tell this story and to look at how can we extract the most benefit out of it for both the product and the people that will live in those homes and, you know, make those choices?

00:35:40:22 - 00:35:54:10
Sara Gutterman: What are the biggest hurdles to integrating embodied carbon into how we value homes? You know, what's the linchpin and what has to happen to move this from being an emerging concept to a market standard?

00:35:54:13 - 00:36:21:12
Matthew Cooper: Well, I think I think what has to happen is people have to see and be able to rely upon the utilization of the standard. And you'll you'll start to see more manufacturers understand that now that they now they have a reliable methodology by which their products can be judged against their competitors. So there will be start to be a change in the in the marketplace side of it.

00:36:21:19 - 00:36:50:12
Matthew Cooper: And that will start to change the the awareness side of it within the consumer. So as consumers start to see more, more products on their marketplace that are visibly telling their body carbon story, they'll start to say, what is that? And why is that important to me? And then they may start to see, oh, well, now I understand what you're what you're saying, why you're you're marketing your product as being a differentiator when it comes to embodied carbon.

00:36:50:15 - 00:37:27:03
Matthew Cooper: So I think those two components will will start to be the key drivers is manufacturers telling their story and consumers starting to see that story be told, start to understand it and then start to ask for it. So being part of the valuation will start to impact things such as insurance requirements. It will start to impact things such as finance availability, because there will be tools on our marketplace that will say, okay, well now there's now there's a reasonable way of assessing this.

00:37:27:04 - 00:37:50:02
Matthew Cooper: Whereas before it was very, very clunky, very complicated. And in a lot of cases, I think people would say, do can we really trust that? Well, now that now that there's a methodology to do that, that will be rolled into the quality assurance part of ResNet, there'll be a change in that understanding and conversation around and around embodied carbon.

00:37:50:02 - 00:38:18:22
Matthew Cooper: And I think that because of the the way that the consumer has seen energy efficiency become just such a standard component of what they look at when they consider, where do I want to live? I think that they'll it'll be a faster adoption process for embodied carbon, because it's following the same path of of energy efficiency. And where energy efficiency in the 70s was, was very fringe.

00:38:18:22 - 00:38:43:05
Matthew Cooper: And, and, you know, it challenged a lot of people's perspective of is this important to me and why to something where in in the last decade to 15 years, it's become just pure mainstream. Everybody understands it. Everybody asks about it. They want to know the Herz index on their home. They want to understand, you know, they see the value proposition of code changing.

00:38:43:05 - 00:39:04:02
Matthew Cooper: They see the benefits to them improved indoor air quality, improved durability, improved retention of value, you know, the value of their homes. I think, you know, I read recently the average age of American housing is 40 plus years old. So when you look at, you know, what is a 40 year old home today? Need to bring it up to today's standards.

00:39:04:02 - 00:39:31:24
Matthew Cooper: It's significant. So people can make a choice of do I, when I'm looking at two homes to buy one is or is 40 years old and one is brand new. The brand new home with better, better operational carbon, better embody carbon is not going to need all these changes to bring it up to the same level of quality and comfort and shelter that I want for my family, and that will change their their decision making.

00:39:31:27 - 00:39:42:25
Sara Gutterman: Matthew, I have two final rapid fire questions. First, in a very succinct way, tell us what value per square foot means to you.

00:39:42:28 - 00:40:17:07
Matthew Cooper: So to me, value per square foot is it's of quality of life. And to me, when I look at how do we help builders build homes that are are a better home for their consumer, we need to look at every element of the home. And it has to be it has to be cohesive. So to me the value is understanding and not not being willing to consider.

00:40:17:10 - 00:40:37:19
Matthew Cooper: Taking the cheap route on one component of shelter. And just because of the first cost that we have to consider all of these elements in, in, in consistent way and cohesive way that they're all equally valid, valued.

00:40:37:19 - 00:40:47:21
Sara Gutterman: And if listeners could remember only one idea from you today, one seed, that might change the way that they value the world around them, what would it be?

00:40:47:27 - 00:41:25:15
Matthew Cooper: The best way that they can value the world around them is to see that this piece of shelter is something that should serve them and their family for decades to come, and to make that first choice based on working with with developers that work with, with the types of products and the type of passion for delivering a home that serves them from a moral perspective that values their entire life and their interaction with that structure, that's what they should.

00:41:25:16 - 00:41:35:03
Matthew Cooper: That's what they should be focusing on, is not just first cost, but looking at long term. What is the value proposition for me and my family?

00:41:35:05 - 00:42:04:25
Sara Gutterman: Matthew, thank you so much. Your work has shown us that for too long, carbon and the risks that it represents has been invisible in housing, and that's just not okay anymore. But fortunately, tools like ResNet 1550 are bringing clarity to embodied and operational impacts, and the industry is gaining something that it has never had before. It tool to measure this type of decarbonization and tie performance to value.

00:42:04:25 - 00:42:11:02
Sara Gutterman: So thank you so much for joining us on the valuation metric. Let's keep measuring what truly matters.

00:42:11:04 - 00:42:22:10
Speaker 4: Before you click away. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And don't miss the daily coverage on sustainability, housing and what's next for home building at Greenbelt. Com stay informed stay ahead.