Green Builder Media editor-in-chief Matt Power leads high-performance builder Todd Usher and Panasonic's Russell Pope through what actually makes a home healthy, how ventilation and pressurization shape indoor air quality and comfort, and the return on upgraded ventilation systems. The panel focuses on how building professionals can explain those benefits to buyers.
00:00:02:09 - 00:00:28:01
Mike Collignon: All right. Happy Wednesday everyone. After the winter storm we had this past week. And it's only fitting that it's international snow sculpting Week. Please send your pictures in to me. I'd love to see the creativity out there. In other news, we have a webinar today that will we will be exploring how ventilation impacts health, comfort and long term value, and how building professionals can better explain those benefits to buyers.
00:00:28:04 - 00:01:03:01
Mike Collignon: To do that, our panel of guests will talk about the ROI of upgraded ventilation systems, code compliance, best practices, and a whole lot more. Todd Usher is a nationally recognized leader in high performance, sustainable homebuilding and the founder of Edison Homes. Drawing on his early career in chemical manufacturing and a deep passion for building science. Todd developed a precision driven quality system that ensures every Edison home delivers exceptional comfort, superior indoor air quality, outstanding energy efficiency, and increased resilience to natural disasters.
00:01:03:03 - 00:01:35:02
Mike Collignon: Under his leadership, Edison Homes is among the few US builders that construct every home to rigorous national standards, including the U.S. Department of Energy's energy. I mean, the, Energy Efficient New Homes program, the Environmental Protection Agency's Indoor Air Plus program. And Todd pairs his industry leadership with academic expertise. As the director of Clemson University's Master of Real Estate Development Program, he also holds four degrees from the university, including a PhD in planning, design and the Built Environment.
00:01:35:04 - 00:02:08:14
Mike Collignon: A master's of Construction Science and an MBA. Russell Pope oversees the Product Management department and is the industry development advocate for Panasonic Eco Solutions North America. Russell is an active participant in Ashrae 62.2, Energy Star, Department of Energy Programs and Codes and Standards Development. Russell is the immediate past chairman of the board for the Home Ventilating Institute, and he received the future of VI Award in 2014, and has served on the Board of Directors for IBA.
00:02:08:17 - 00:02:29:00
Mike Collignon: Now joining us to facilitate the discussion is Matt Power. He is the editor in chief of Green Building Media. It's largely because of Matt. The Green Building magazine was named Best Residential Trade Magazine by the National Association of Real Estate Editors for eight consecutive years. Matt has an award winning nearly three decade career reporting on innovation and sustainability in housing.
00:02:29:03 - 00:02:52:20
Mike Collignon: Our webinar today is brought to you by a Panasonic. Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions is helping builders across the country differentiate themselves with powerful, code compliant and cost effective indoor air quality solutions that provide a safer environment for home buyers. During the course of today's presentation, you can submit questions for our panel of guests. Simply use the Q&A function located in the menu bar at the bottom of the zoom window.
00:02:52:22 - 00:03:02:14
Mike Collignon: I'll review those questions and once we are done with our discussion, pose those to our guests. Thank you very much, Matt. I yield the floor to you, my friend.
00:03:02:16 - 00:03:25:17
Matt Power: Thank you very much, Mike. Nice introduction. Hi, everybody. It's great to be with you today. And thank you for your time. Hopefully will be well worth it. And you'll get some, some tips and ideas that'll, inspire you and maybe, save you some money and help you to, sell some, healthy homes. So one thing I want to mention is that our webinars often go out to two audiences.
00:03:25:17 - 00:03:49:20
Matt Power: It's both the professional, the contractor, the, the tradesman, trained person. And also just, you know, home buyers and clients. So, I'd ask that our guests, our panelist, speak a little bit to both. I mean, we're going to emphasize more toward the pro side with this, but, let's try to keep this understandable and clear. So, everybody get something out of it.
00:03:49:22 - 00:04:11:08
Matt Power: So, I wanted to start out, I think it's great to have a builder on on the call with us. And, Todd, Addison Homes has been. You know, sort of making its own way with green building in on a lot of different levels. But I wanted to sort of dive into the sort of healthy, healthy home side of it, because that seems like you're sort of emphasizing that more.
00:04:11:08 - 00:04:20:06
Matt Power: I looked at your website. I know you've got a lot of emphasis. Now, could you start to define for us what is a healthy home for for those who aren't already versed in that?
00:04:20:08 - 00:04:58:17
Todd Usher: Well, yeah. Matt. Absolutely. And, you know, I think, part of our early interest or my early interest in the health aspect of home homes came from my personal experience. I was a long time allergy sufferers. Still am. And before my building career, as I started learning about building science was able to connect my allergies in my 1970s home with the ventilated crawl space and, ducts that were not sealed well in the fall.
00:04:58:19 - 00:05:27:22
Todd Usher: And that kind of started this passion for me of digging into how we can make indoor air healthier for occupants. So, you know, from my perspective, both anecdotally and personally, I think that a healthy home to me means high quality indoor environment, and that primarily is air quality. But I think it also depends on each person. You know, we all have different sensitivities.
00:05:27:22 - 00:05:53:04
Todd Usher: We all have different definitions of what a healthy home may be. And for some, that might just be comfort where there's no temperature differences across the house. For others, it may be indoor air quality, for others it may be the fact that it's quiet inside and you don't hear the outdoor noise. So I think there's a lot of different ways we can define that.
00:05:53:04 - 00:06:06:27
Todd Usher: And ultimately, when we talk to clients and talk about healthy homes generally, part of our discovery process is finding out what their definition personally is for a healthy home.
00:06:07:00 - 00:06:25:20
Matt Power: Right. And also like, overdue rest for a second. The codes themselves have changed, right? The more recent, like IRC codes. Have a stricter requirement about ventilation and how much, you know, how many air changes per hour and so on. And we were talking we had a little meeting the other day. We were talking about this.
00:06:25:20 - 00:06:43:21
Matt Power: And there's a lot of sort of a perfect storm of things that are happening out there, right? You get tighter homes, homes, you get tighter and tighter. We've got wildfires outside. We've got, other types of pollutants that people are just becoming aware of. So tell us about the from the code angle. Like what does a builder need to know?
00:06:43:21 - 00:06:49:27
Matt Power: Russ. Right now that that's happening, I know it's a little bit different in different markets. One of the key things.
00:06:49:27 - 00:07:12:00
Russell Pope: Yeah. So absolutely, they usually where we're seeing more of the trends towards indoor air quality. It's kind of fortunately and unfortunately because my opinion indoor air quality should be more important than saving $20 a month on your power bill or something like that, you know, but we're seeing that as the energy requirements are getting tighter and tighter, that they're the only way that you can do that is with a tighter home.
00:07:12:03 - 00:07:37:00
Russell Pope: And as that building envelope gets, more tight, we get down to less than three air changes. And our, you're the you're looking at required permits for balanced ventilation so that you know for sure that you're getting air in and out. So that's one of the things that we're noticing now. I think one of the things and what brought my attention mostly to Todd and Addison Homes is they're ahead of those code changes.
00:07:37:00 - 00:08:02:13
Russell Pope: So if you follow the trends, it's going to happen eventually. So the key is now to to differentiate your homes while you have the opportunity before everybody else has to do it. And that's really the opportunity, I think, for builders is to recognize how important it is, to, to market those. You know, I don't know that any countertop has helped anybody live a longer life or a healthier life, or a higher quality of life.
00:08:02:13 - 00:08:08:00
Russell Pope: But indoor air quality absolutely can have, can impact all of those things.
00:08:08:02 - 00:08:23:13
Matt Power: Let's talk to, let's talk to the builder who's always done it the same way. Right. You've always put a couple of bad fans in. You've done, you know, you know what the code is. You've met the bare minimum. You throw a range hood in. But each one of those things, you know, as we were talking about the other day, it's in the details, right?
00:08:23:13 - 00:08:47:06
Matt Power: You put a range to it in that's got that moves too many CFM, that's too powerful. You created an imbalance in the house, right. You put, bath in and you don't have return air for it to pull from. You know, you can create a problem there. So, you know, we haven't really talked about eaves yet. And, you know, maybe we need for people who maybe don't know much about areas.
00:08:47:09 - 00:08:59:21
Matt Power: Maybe they aren't. Maybe they're not even installing them yet. Why don't we dive into the RV mechanical solution a little bit first? Just assume somebody doesn't know a lot, and maybe that's to start with you rust with those.
00:08:59:23 - 00:09:23:28
Russell Pope: Okay. Yeah. So as we've looked at those different ways to do balance ventilation. So as the code has changed, there are traditionally a supply only or exhaust only ventilation strategies. Now that's fine. If you've got a leaky house like the old farmhouses where when, you know, air can come in freely from all kinds of places. But now is that building envelope is built tighter.
00:09:24:04 - 00:09:53:00
Russell Pope: You have to make sure that you have, a controlled means of supply and and exhausting there. So it evolved from supply only and exhaust are only to now we're seeing more balanced ventilation requirements. And now the changes from balanced ventilation requirements in general to ERV specifically. Now we're even seeing them take over a lot of the traditional air RV because of the, recovery of additional moisture.
00:09:53:03 - 00:10:00:18
Matt Power: Okay. So quickly, just for people who don't know the difference between an urban RV, you just lay that out. Simple terms for people.
00:10:00:20 - 00:10:35:23
Russell Pope: Yeah. So the air RV, it exchanges the temperature differentials. So, the difference with the RV, it's it's actually allowing exchange of excess moisture from one side to the other. So in these cases, there's a ratings for the products that include the value of that moisture transfer. Now that what that moisture transfer does, particularly in cooling season climates like the southeast, is that reduces the load that either you're having to try to use your air conditioner as a dehumidifier for, or you actually do have dedicated dehumidifiers for those spaces.
00:10:35:23 - 00:10:58:03
Russell Pope: So that's why we're starting to see a lot more focus on energy recovery. Ventilators for that moisture content and the higher quality, of course, that are, made today. So used to any RV would freeze and then there would be problems with it. Obviously now we've got products that can work in any region, including Alaska, Alaska.
00:10:58:06 - 00:11:17:09
Matt Power: Right. And I know there's a lot more, there's a lot more smart systems and sensors and this sort of thing. So you can really get a better sense of, you know, what's actually happening in the house. I know you've got fans that have humidity sensors, that sort of thing that'll come on automatically and all that. Todd, you said something interesting when we were talking about this the other day.
00:11:17:11 - 00:11:30:17
Matt Power: I asked you how you get around trade resistance, right? A lot of trade Hvac people don't want to. They've never put any RVs. They don't know much about ventilation. You had a you had your own solution. You talk about it. Yeah.
00:11:30:17 - 00:12:00:26
Todd Usher: Yeah. So, you know, we've built for, over 24 years now and and from the very near our very beginning have built high performance homes, healthy homes. And for most of those 20 plus years, we struggled with finding the right Hvac contractor and getting our Hvac contractors on board. And over the years, just began to build our familiarity and expertise with the Hvac design process.
00:12:00:26 - 00:12:41:00
Todd Usher: The best practices for the design that we wanted to implement in our homes, and about four years ago, actually brought that in-house. So we handle our own designs, procuring the materials and equipment. And, and then we subcontract the install labor and then supervise that to make sure it's done to our specifications and our standards. So we've kind of taken the dependency on the traditional Hvac contractor being the one to do the load calculation and the duct design, and procure the right equipment.
00:12:41:02 - 00:13:07:25
Todd Usher: And really we're I think we were expecting them to be too many things at at once. And we've said, you know what, let's bring that inside. So that internally we can design the best system for our homes and not have to fight the battles of, oh, that system's going to be too small for this house, or that system's not going to manage the air quality correctly.
00:13:07:28 - 00:13:37:25
Todd Usher: And really, we're hiring the labor to install it and and educating that labor as we, as we move along. So what we're finding is that those install trades are they get behind what we're doing, and they're not burdened with having to do what many contractors see as as non value add. So the load calc or the duct design I think largely because the industry as a whole hasn't paid for that.
00:13:37:25 - 00:13:52:08
Todd Usher: They haven't paid the trades for that. But that has become a very robust solution for us and allows us to truly dial in that system for each project.
00:13:52:10 - 00:14:16:27
Matt Power: Yeah. And I know we, one of the themes of this talk was, sort of how to sell, healthy homes, right? How to talk to clients about healthy homes. And we talked the other day about, problem solving with ventilation. Right. And so some of the problems, for example, we brought up were indoor odors. If you want to get rid of unpleasant odors, the fact that you wouldn't have to you want to have to dust the house as much.
00:14:16:27 - 00:14:45:11
Matt Power: You can control the amount of particulate, you know, moving around the house. And the third one, I think, was, was wildfires and, and outdoor pollutants. Right. So each one of those, I think, different ventilation solutions can, can help with. Right. Why don't we Russ, why don't you you want to take first first shot at that is how how some of the ventilation, the more modern innovative equipment can help deal with some of those problems and can be presented to clients as a solution.
00:14:45:13 - 00:15:09:15
Russell Pope: Yeah. So one of the things that we're seeing, have been in the market for a while, but we're still the adoption rate is still gaining speed are the indoor air quality sensors. So there are devices now that you can actually sense the air quality. They're, they're VOCs, particulate matters, CO2 that automatically do things with your ventilation system.
00:15:09:17 - 00:15:36:17
Russell Pope: So we're seeing more and more of those types of applications. And even looking long term of future predictions and example, you may turn on your oven. And there's part of your home system recognizes that the oven was turned on and then predicts that because the oven's turned on, there's going to be contaminants generated. So it goes ahead and starts ventilating so that you get ahead of those activities, strategies including integrating with outdoor weather too.
00:15:36:17 - 00:15:58:27
Russell Pope: So, you know, if there's a wildfire in the area, you may want to override your ventilation system altogether. I was telling Todd I haven't shared it with him yet. I got to dig it up again. But there was some research that was done in the California area with energy recovery ventilators that actually they were using indoor air quality sensors to to actually ventilate.
00:15:58:29 - 00:16:19:24
Russell Pope: And the difference with they were using demand based ventilation, they significantly reduced their energy consumption because they found out that they didn't need to ventilate as often as the code minimum said. So in that instance, the houses, they saved a lot of energy because they reduced the amount of ventilation. Now that was a benefit for that home.
00:16:19:24 - 00:16:37:02
Russell Pope: But the other thing that you want to avoid is just because there's industry accepted minimums. That doesn't mean that it's the right ventilation rate. And sometimes you may need to ventilate at a lot higher rate to actually satisfy the needs of that individual home and the number of occupants and their cooking habits and everything else.
00:16:37:04 - 00:17:00:22
Matt Power: Right. And, I don't know if every builder realizes too, but a lot of these, you know, I always thought of RVs as sort of standalone items, but a lot of, the way I've used and stuff are installed now is they're hooked into a central, like, Hvac system, right? So they can use existing ducting or, you know, you can add it in and Todd, you mentioned that use quite a high, filtration system, like a, like a Merv 16.
00:17:00:25 - 00:17:07:04
Matt Power: Right. Which, which will catch wildfire, you know, pretty much everything in terms of particles.
00:17:07:06 - 00:17:31:22
Todd Usher: Yeah. Generally, you know, in, in all of our homes, we years ago we went to Central Filtration so that our filtration is on the unit at the air handler and not in the returns. And that gave us more flexibility with locating our returns and getting better air distribution throughout the house. But it also significantly boosted the filtration capability in the home.
00:17:31:24 - 00:18:03:29
Todd Usher: And so if we have a carbon impregnated filter, it will indeed scrub the wildfire smoke out of the air. But the Merv 15, Merv 16 that we've kind of settled in as standard, just improve the overall air quality by removing far more particulates than any lesser filtration. And, and generally, you know, we do have some people will say, well, wow, aren't those form five inch thick media filters more expensive?
00:18:04:02 - 00:18:32:14
Todd Usher: And yes, they are, but what we find is most of our clients are only changing those once a year because they don't load as rapidly as the thin one inch filters and the return grill. And so if you looked at using a a higher Merv rated, one inch thick return filter and you changed it every month like you should, your cost would be roughly the same as one of these high efficiency filters, which is only about $100.
00:18:32:16 - 00:18:53:11
Matt Power: Right? Right. Now, tell us from from your perspective at Addison Homes, where does this, healthy home concept come up? You know, you got a new client walks in the door? Yeah. When does that conversation begin? And what's the hook? What's what's the thing that keeps the conversation alive?
00:18:53:13 - 00:19:16:11
Todd Usher: Well, I think, you know, I think, that many of our clients come to us because we are building a home that is differentiated than a than a home built to code. And that could be for a variety of different reasons. But a significant number of those come to us because they're interested in the healthier indoor air quality.
00:19:16:13 - 00:19:46:05
Todd Usher: Sometimes they'll have a specific reason. So, for example, we had a recent client that called and said, you know, inquired about having a house built and said, we want our ducks inside conditioned space. And for us that's like, whoa, that's a great prospect. That's a great lead because they've educated themselves on the importance of your heating and cooling ducts being inside the building envelope versus outside in the attic or vented crawlspace.
00:19:46:08 - 00:20:09:15
Todd Usher: So, you know, in some cases, as we began to drill down with that client in particular, it turns out they had a kid with asthma issues, and they had lived in a house that had a leaky window that went undetected for many years until it became a mold issue in the wall and was associated with one of their children's asthma issues.
00:20:09:17 - 00:20:41:17
Todd Usher: So, you know, clients that have something near and dear, like a personal experience, obviously come to this with a different perspective than, you know, say, another client we have that was just interested in us because we have better indoor air quality, no specific reason, but they're investing a significant amount of money in a new home, and they have young children and they want the best indoor environment for them.
00:20:41:19 - 00:20:43:06
Todd Usher: And, you know, I think the.
00:20:43:09 - 00:20:59:27
Matt Power: Hand go hit the pan. I always think the pandemic had a big influence on this. Like people got used to thinking about the air in their houses. And, you know, you get one person sick in one room and you're trying to. Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of stuff going on. And did it, did it impact just overall?
00:21:00:00 - 00:21:03:04
Matt Power: How much attention people pay to ventilation?
00:21:03:07 - 00:21:37:18
Todd Usher: I think it's not so much ventilation. Healthy indoor air. Probably so. But I don't think the average consumer still understands what the variables are that make indoor air healthier. I don't think they understand that. Oh, it needs ventilation or oh, it needs better filtration. They just know it's better if the indoor air is healthier. And when you get into that discussion, certainly then we go into we have dedicated ventilation.
00:21:37:18 - 00:22:12:05
Todd Usher: We have, robust air filtration. We have dedicated dehumidification. And that's how we maintain the indoor air quality in the home. So it's always I've found it's always an educational process with our clients. Usually they know enough to know that this matters. And when they come to us, they're looking for confirmation on why this matters and how we ensure that we're going to achieve what we're selling.
00:22:12:07 - 00:22:16:26
Matt Power: It's funny when you said that they know enough. I thought you were going to say they know enough to be dangerous when they.
00:22:16:27 - 00:22:28:05
Todd Usher: Well, you know, in some cases they do. I mean, we have some clients, they come to us and they've been watching YouTube and they've got it all figured out. You know, this is what I got to do. And yeah.
00:22:28:06 - 00:22:36:26
Matt Power: You know, and the fact that they know the term condition space right. Like that. Yeah. You're like, well they've done that. My homework I, I gotta have my, my best hat on here.
00:22:37:03 - 00:22:53:25
Todd Usher: Well when someone comes, when someone comes in and, and says something to the, to the, to that extent that they want ducts inside conditioned space that all the, the sirens and bells go off and you're like, this is a hot client because they understand they're educated.
00:22:53:28 - 00:23:12:07
Matt Power: Yeah. And I do think, you know, you brought up like the childhood asthma thing. And I think sometimes, like I told you, part of the story of my wife and I have had our own story of why we got interested in it, because we had an experience in a small, like a concrete block house we had bought.
00:23:12:09 - 00:23:30:18
Matt Power: We were getting headaches, like every morning or waking up with headaches, for for months. And, we said maybe it's the air, and we. I got the little air sensor, and we had 1600 parts per million of CO2 just from breathing. And the bedroom at night. And so we put in the RV and it was in a Sonic RV.
00:23:30:20 - 00:23:51:17
Matt Power: We put, the sensor. So we dropped it down to 400 from 1600. So it had an immediate headaches went away. I mean, I think there's some real people with mystery health symptoms. Sometimes. Yeah. Ventilation sometimes lies at the root of some weird, you know, health stuff. So maybe an angle there too.
00:23:51:18 - 00:24:12:10
Russell Pope: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matt, when you talk about the amount of time spent indoors. Oh yeah. Think of the. So at least if you're, if you're not lazy and sleep more than, eight hours a day or you sleep less, that's still a third of your life. So a third of that time is spent in the bedroom. So shouldn't we guess on those opportunities?
00:24:12:11 - 00:24:42:01
Russell Pope: A lot of times with the ERV, we're actually supplying fresh air into the bedroom with dedicated ducts. And in cases that they don't have it, we're recommending, you know, maybe you want to have your bathroom exhaust fan in your in your master bath, run continuously all night long to help extract some of that air, so that you're a third of your life is you're not not reminded by high CO2 because it's a small bedroom and there's a couple with two pets that are sleeping on the ground, right, right for the bed.
00:24:42:03 - 00:25:04:24
Matt Power: And, you know, let's talk about noise a little bit. You know, one of the things that comes up with ventilation, right? And it always the old, the boogeyman, the all ventilation was always the noisy fans in the bathroom, the noisy range hoods, etc.. I know that most TVs are pretty quiet, you know, from the ones I've seen, like, the Intel balance hardly makes any noise.
00:25:04:26 - 00:25:26:22
Matt Power: You mentioned something the other day. Tired about keeping range hood CFM down instead of blasting range hoods at 600 cfm, having, more, I guess a lower level, lower threshold there. You can get rid of a lot of the noise that way, right? If there is a noise issue, right.
00:25:26:24 - 00:25:59:07
Todd Usher: Sure. Yeah. I mean, you certainly can. And, you know, take mechanical systems, for example. And and that would include ERV fresh air, system as all part of the mechanical system. Our strategy has been to use variable speed heat pumps and tying in the fresh air and dehumidification somewhat with that distribution ductwork distribution system. But running the air handler fan on ultra low speed continuously.
00:25:59:10 - 00:26:29:20
Todd Usher: And there's been debate in the industry about whether that's good or not. We found it to be very effective. One it's quiet. You don't hear it run. And the inverter variable speed compressors turning on and off and just matching the load, meeting the demand. The other is we're getting continuous filtration and we're getting continuous distribution of the fresh air throughout the house.
00:26:29:22 - 00:27:05:03
Todd Usher: So and continuous temperature distribution throughout the house. So, one of the things we often hear from, from clients is, you know, I never hear the air conditioning run. And right when you properly size the system and, you, you use variable speed systems with variable output blowers. That's one of the benefits you, when you design the ducks correctly, you don't have whistling air running through the ductwork.
00:27:05:05 - 00:27:40:16
Todd Usher: You don't have the big, when the unit kicks on outside, when it's a single speed unit, it just cruises along quietly, comfortably and delivers just a fantastic experience to the occupant indoors. And that's another common. Common? Comment that we receive. When a client's moved in and lived in the house for a month or so, and we come back for our 30 day visit, usually it's, wow, this house is so quiet.
00:27:40:19 - 00:28:02:16
Todd Usher: And you can tell people about that on the front end. I'll often call it the tangible intangibles. Like, I can tell you all day long that the house is going to be more comfortable, that it's going to be quieter, that you're going to feel better because of the air, but only when you experience it. Does it really mean everything?
00:28:02:19 - 00:28:05:16
Matt Power: Maybe. Maybe we're going to start having model homes with sleepovers.
00:28:05:16 - 00:28:22:18
Todd Usher: Well, you know, we've we've got a lot that we plan to have a, have a model home built. We've thought maybe we should just make it an Airbnb. Right. It can be you know, a free weekend for any prospective client. Go experience what it's like one of these I.
00:28:22:21 - 00:28:40:18
Matt Power: I they do a similar thing. The Babcock ranch down here in Florida. Yeah, yeah, they have a couple of condos. They keep aside so people can come in and stay and, you know, kind of feel what it's like to live there. So. Right. That's if you can afford it as part of your plan. It's a pretty good deal.
00:28:40:18 - 00:28:41:04
Matt Power: Yeah.
00:28:41:07 - 00:28:42:29
Todd Usher: Right. Right.
00:28:43:02 - 00:28:47:05
Matt Power: Yeah. Yeah. Give the home. Make sense? Give the home a test drive. Yeah.
00:28:47:06 - 00:29:14:12
Todd Usher: Give it a test drive. I mean, truly, and, you know, over 20 plus years of seeing this, it's it's really become it's predictable. When we come in 30, 45 days after move in, we generally know one of 3 or 4 things that we're going to hear from the client. So to be able to give someone even an A, a night or two that experience, I think could make a big difference.
00:29:14:15 - 00:29:14:29
Russell Pope: Yeah.
00:29:15:02 - 00:29:42:28
Matt Power: Let's, let's pivot a little bit. Russ. Like, like to the just so we don't leave out people with existing homes who are thinking about you know, improving ventilation. You know, what, what are the tools available to them? Where and what would you recommend somebody comes to you? What like, would there be a checklist like, you know, make sure the house is tight first or what would you say to them said before we before we start selling you equipment, what do they need to know and what's the process going.
00:29:43:01 - 00:30:00:12
Russell Pope: So it would include a lot of those things. And it depends on their long term goals and what else they have as part of it. Now, if it's just a healthy home type of assessment, and I think this is a term that we should adopt in the industry as a healthy home retrofit. We do remodels, right? We we remodel bathrooms, remodel kitchens.
00:30:00:15 - 00:30:19:13
Russell Pope: You know, why not have this healthy home retrofit that that we go in or, you know, an indoor air quality specialist goes in and they monitor things all the time to open up your kit. You're underneath the cabinets. So look for places where there's mold. They'll they'll maybe have a temperature, flare device that sees where air is leaking in and out.
00:30:19:16 - 00:30:34:06
Russell Pope: But, you know, one of the easiest steps that anybody can do within the next 10 minutes or 5 minutes or three minutes after they are far away from their bathroom, take a couple squares of toilet paper, turn the fan on and see if it'll hold. If it won't hold, it's not working right.
00:30:34:06 - 00:30:35:16
Matt Power: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:35:19 - 00:30:56:24
Russell Pope: You know, the fogging mirrors. So those are things that are clear indicators of if the if you're getting foggy mirrors, you're not getting enough ventilation. And those are things that we have them look at. And you know, if, if those devices aren't or aren't correct then the rest of the stuff doesn't matter. So a lot of times we'll start with the exhaust fans and then go from there tight enough.
00:30:56:24 - 00:31:05:23
Russell Pope: Then we would give recommendations for balanced ventilation, either through supply fans or ultimately the the ERP devices.
00:31:05:26 - 00:31:17:01
Matt Power: It seems like though if you're doing major renovations, you know, adding whole wings onto a house, it's a missed opportunity if you're not, you know, introducing some some new, you know, modern ventilation in there.
00:31:17:04 - 00:31:39:04
Russell Pope: Yeah. You know, one of the things that you alluded to earlier, Matt, too, is I think that's really important is, you know, in designs of bigger homes especially, you can create kind of isolation areas if you've got, game room, for example, over the garage or you've got another space that's kind of separated. You know, we're giving recommendations to maybe do a small ERV in that space.
00:31:39:04 - 00:32:06:22
Russell Pope: The whisper comfort, for example, that is dedicated for a small space and do a dedicated air handler mini split or something in that location. Then you're creating not only an isolation zone if somebody's sick. Yeah, but also if you're if you're looking to run space with a generator, you can also isolate that individual room of, you know, we're just going to provide the power to that room and have that room really comfortable and run that idea with the generators and other things during storms.
00:32:06:22 - 00:32:28:13
Matt Power: So yeah, it's funny. Matt. Yeah, my, my mom came down and visited me, a couple weeks ago and she showed up sick and, you know, had the flu. And so we, we isolated her and did exactly that in the back room with its own bathroom, with its own fan. But it was great having that space, where she could be comfortable but also not get everyone else sick.
00:32:28:13 - 00:32:29:02
Matt Power: So.
00:32:29:04 - 00:32:32:06
Russell Pope: Yeah, I hope you left the thinking on that to to create that negative.
00:32:32:09 - 00:32:34:29
Matt Power: We should have some drive under the door every so often.
00:32:35:01 - 00:32:36:02
Todd Usher: It's right, it's right.
00:32:36:04 - 00:32:40:04
Matt Power: A bottle of wine. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
00:32:40:11 - 00:32:57:03
Todd Usher: Yeah. I'm you know, I'm, I'm the nerd that anytime we stay in an Airbnb or even sometimes a hotel, I'm the guy with. Yeah, that goes into the bathroom, stands on the toilet with a piece of toilet paper to see if the bath fans work. And and my family is just like, what are you doing?
00:32:57:03 - 00:32:58:07
Matt Power: You doing?
00:32:58:09 - 00:33:06:25
Todd Usher: And, you know, I want them to remark it like there's no airflow on this fan. And they're just like, yeah, I know, whatever. That's weird. Yeah.
00:33:06:27 - 00:33:10:20
Matt Power: Yeah. I thought you're going to say you go in with the white glove, but that's just too scary.
00:33:10:25 - 00:33:12:21
Todd Usher: No, that is a little scary.
00:33:12:23 - 00:33:13:07
Matt Power: Yeah.
00:33:13:10 - 00:33:14:28
Todd Usher: That's a little scary. Yeah.
00:33:15:00 - 00:33:34:17
Matt Power: So, so, Russ, let's, let's say, you know, somebody somebody who's, you know, likes this idea. The house is maybe their builder contractor or or and they're like, what? What's what's the suite of stuff that I'd want to put in. Right. You they may know about bath plans, but you, you've got a bunch of stuff and you get some new products in the pipeline.
00:33:34:17 - 00:33:37:19
Matt Power: What's some cool stuff that, that maybe they want to take a look at?
00:33:37:21 - 00:34:07:01
Russell Pope: You know, the first thing that we would do, and I think it's really important is to have the actual conversation about what the goals are, what the house structure is, to make sure that we're supplying the right products and we're addressing the climate zone, for example, you know, climate, there's significant differences. And, you know, even in in areas that are ten miles apart in California, for example, you've got these different swings, you've got the southeast and you've got anything that's coastal, that's really humid.
00:34:07:03 - 00:34:27:13
Russell Pope: So those are some of the first steps is determine, okay, what is your what are the, the the conditions of your home. You know, you're building the code. You're building above code. And then we can find the right products. One of the things that we try to it's always hard to do to to not say, well, you need to buy this best product because it's the best and it is the best for them.
00:34:27:16 - 00:34:48:12
Russell Pope: But yeah, you know, we have to gauge the appetite of the builder for the cost of the products that they're installing. Right. And the stage that vary. And so I think our conversation with Todd was the other day was okay. They started with these bigger chunks. You know, they got the air conditioning right. They added supplemental dehumidification. The next step is probably now E RVs.
00:34:48:19 - 00:35:03:21
Russell Pope: So those are the types of things that we have, those conversations with the individual builder to make sure that we're addressing their specific needs. And also, you know, trying the best we can to manage the pressures that they have from their purchasing group to buy the cheapest product. Yeah.
00:35:03:24 - 00:35:04:28
Todd Usher: Yeah. I mean, you know.
00:35:04:28 - 00:35:11:06
Matt Power: And I got a question from somebody, also is Panasonic going to be at R at the show trade show.
00:35:11:08 - 00:35:12:13
Russell Pope: Absolutely. Yeah.
00:35:12:15 - 00:35:22:25
Matt Power: Yeah. So so Sylvia I think we got to know just got to know Sylvia. I don't know. Are you personally going to be there or just some or people from Panasonic talking from.
00:35:22:27 - 00:35:30:10
Russell Pope: I will be there and we'll have a kind of we have a the okay trade saying no, I don't absolutely.
00:35:30:10 - 00:35:55:00
Matt Power: Yes okay. Good good good good. That's great. So let's, let's go back to you for a minute. Todd. So let's talk about, you know, climate specific. You're in a hot, humid climate, right? So you're, you know, well, not all most mixed. Humid. Yeah. Mixed. You often hear this, right? Right. What are the special concerns of ventilation and your type of climate?
00:35:55:02 - 00:36:24:03
Todd Usher: Well, you know, the biggest challenge in our climate, being a mixed, humid climate are the colder months. So in the spring and fall, when we don't have much demand on our air conditioning. Therefore, typically if air conditioning is your only dehumidification source, you're relying on the AC to remove moisture in the home. If in the colder months we don't need air conditioning, we basically have no dehumidification.
00:36:24:05 - 00:36:49:17
Todd Usher: And if you add ventilation in on that, it doesn't matter if it's an air RV or straight up ventilation, you're going to be adding humidity to the indoor environment. And ultimately, that's what led us to, dedicated dehumidification to our homes, about four years ago. It is we we were getting the, the envelope, so.
00:36:49:17 - 00:37:17:03
Todd Usher: Well sealed and and insulated that those shoulder months became very challenging to maintain proper humidity inside the home. And I think in any humid climate, that's one of the challenges. Any time we ventilate, even if it's in the RV, we are exchanging some of that moisture. But net net, we're adding moisture to the to the home. So we have to keep that in mind.
00:37:17:06 - 00:37:39:16
Todd Usher: You know, I was telling I think all of you on the recent call I had of a, blower door testing, person here in our area that I follow and he had made a post about a super insulated home that he went out to take a look at. It was all spray foamed and super airtight, with no ventilation and no dehumidification.
00:37:39:18 - 00:37:48:13
Todd Usher: And bad things grow when that happens and you don't address holistically the indoor environment.
00:37:48:15 - 00:38:09:16
Matt Power: So there's a little bit of, it's always been the challenge, right? Is, is how do you keep your energy costs low at the same time? Get get that minimal level of dehumidification. Yeah. You know, there's there are different strategies maybe. Russ, what would you say? You know, because I know one of the key ideas of any RV is it's it saves you money over just opening a window.
00:38:09:16 - 00:38:31:23
Matt Power: Right? You just open a window, you're letting all that conditioned air, whereas in ERP is exchanging the latent heat. I guess if I'm putting it right in, in that air, right, or the latent energy in that air. So how can somebody, how can a maybe, maybe how does a builder talked about people say, hey, if we have this ventilation, it's not going to drive your energy bill up.
00:38:31:23 - 00:38:34:20
Matt Power: And here's here's why. Here's why it's worth it.
00:38:34:22 - 00:38:56:18
Russell Pope: Yeah. So the biggest part of that though is the cost. It's expensive to remove moisture from the air, whether it's the air conditioner running or a dehumidifier. So the idea is you want to remove as much moisture as possible before it comes into the space. Now one of the questions we get, and we always say, you know, we warn people and the RV is not a dehumidifier.
00:38:56:21 - 00:39:38:05
Russell Pope: But yeah, good point. It certainly reduces the load that you would have to to do with dehumidification or air conditioning. So by bringing in that fresh air and removing some of that expensive moisture that you're having to deal with because it's exchanging to the core and rejecting some of that, then that's where you get those energy savings. And, and that's one of the metrics that's that we're trying to get more attention towards is that moisture transfer ratio that, you know, we've got the a lot of metrics for the temperature difference, but that moisture potentially has a bigger impact on energy savings, I believe, than that temperature transfer.
00:39:38:05 - 00:40:00:12
Russell Pope: And when you talk about things like hers, ratings, and if you can remove some of that moisture with dehumidifiers or RVs, then you can get a smaller air handling system that, you know, these things can chip away at your ratings and your scores. So that's really important to sort of keep an eye holistically. How do these things work together?
00:40:00:19 - 00:40:27:20
Matt Power: You know, it's interesting. You know, I read a lot of, you know, white papers and stuff, and somebody did a white paper on the condensate from, you know, many splits and condensers and stuff. And they found it surprisingly clean. Right? It's it's like not it doesn't have much toxin at all in it. And so I actually hooked up, I had a couple of them on my house in Florida and hooked them up, put them to my raised beds and use them as a watering source.
00:40:27:22 - 00:40:44:06
Matt Power: You know, so there's like it's kind of geeky, but it's like there's because you're pulling so much water out of that air all the time. It seems like get a little bit more use, but maybe there's maybe down the road there's a constructive use for some of this, you know, water that were extracting from the from the air.
00:40:44:06 - 00:40:45:23
Matt Power: We get double duty out of it.
00:40:45:25 - 00:41:08:15
Russell Pope: Yeah. And that's the other part, too, is, you know, Todd and I talked about it a little bit, earlier this week of just that, you know, how do how do we how do we ventilate the appropriate rate and how do we find the right balance? And one of the things that they used to say, and some people still say dilution is the solution, and it's not it's not anymore.
00:41:08:18 - 00:41:33:21
Russell Pope: Now you have to look at other things now. Filtration is extremely important. If your air is already the right temperature inside, and all you need to address is particulate matter, then filter that air on the inside. And like Todd said, continue that. Have that system run all the time. Because in your heart, I'm sure you don't have that same problem that Matt had with his, you know, two in the bedroom at night because you're continuing to flush and redistribute that air.
00:41:33:27 - 00:41:34:14
Russell Pope: Oh that's.
00:41:34:17 - 00:41:37:02
Todd Usher: Right, yeah. That's right. Yeah.
00:41:37:09 - 00:41:59:03
Matt Power: Right. I think it's strategy. Yeah. So, talk about you know, one of the things we brought up is the RV, surprisingly, even though they've been around a long time, there's still sort of an educational gap, I feel. And, you know, I talk to a lot of people in the industry and, you know, I've had many builders even, like a year or two ago at the builder show, 2 or 3 guys who I mentioned ERP, they said what?
00:41:59:05 - 00:42:22:29
Matt Power: Like they looked at me like, what's that? And, I'm not saying that's everywhere, but there is, a lot of, information that hasn't reached all the way through yet, so why should it, right. Why why should we get the word out a little bit about some of these new innovations and new ventilations if, if they've done business the same way for 25 years, what's in it for them?
00:42:23:02 - 00:42:23:16
Matt Power: Well.
00:42:23:18 - 00:42:25:02
Todd Usher: You go ahead, Russell.
00:42:25:09 - 00:42:26:18
Russell Pope: No, no, you go.
00:42:26:21 - 00:42:50:09
Todd Usher: Well, I was going to say, you know, if they've done things the same for the past 25 years. The reality is they're not because building codes have changed and building codes have improved, forcing them to do better things. And one of those things is build tighter homes, whether they're trying to or not, just simply by following modern building codes.
00:42:50:09 - 00:43:20:00
Todd Usher: The result is tighter, more insulated homes. And with that, we have to recognize that indoor air quality can suffer. So the fact that we have dedicated systems that can manage that indoor air quality, like IRBs, is very important for folks to understand. And Russell mentioned this earlier. I think it bears repeating because I see I hear this as a common misconception.
00:43:20:00 - 00:44:00:08
Todd Usher: E RVs are not dehumidifiers. They will reduce the humidity load in the air coming into the home by exchanging it with the exhaust air. But it's important that builders understand truly that house is a system approach so that like Russell said, if you've got a particulate challenge filtration, if you've got CO2 challenges like you mat ventilation, and all of that works together and it's, I think ultimately up to the builder to educate themselves, to know what the right solution is for the given scenario.
00:44:00:08 - 00:44:19:12
Todd Usher: And that's where working with manufacturers who are super knowledgeable, working with, you know, media partners, where they write about these things that know there's never been more robust information and knowledge for builders to go out and find to educate themselves.
00:44:19:14 - 00:44:44:28
Matt Power: Yeah, I think that build to rent market too is way underused as IRBs, because there's so many perks. If you've ever been a landlord, you know that you get from running an RV in a rental, and then it doesn't matter if the tenants run the range, you know, you you're not going to have a place that are they're smoking illegally in there or, you know, it's got to deal with a lot of potential issues.
00:44:45:00 - 00:45:02:14
Matt Power: You know, over time, it's sort of like an insurance policy. So I'm surprised, you know, you see, you see many splits everywhere now that's endemic, right? There's many splits on every new, you know, apartment or build to rent property that's going up. So are the RV is going to go next. Are they the next big thing?
00:45:02:17 - 00:45:22:04
Russell Pope: They already are in a lot of places. One of the things that we're seeing, especially if there's energy codes, or some of the stretch codes. So if somebody wants the basic residential code and in this stretch, but, you know, places like New York City, require all of the new dwellings in the city to have energy recovery ventilation.
00:45:22:07 - 00:45:43:17
Russell Pope: And, and we talked a little bit about, you know, negative pressure when your mother in law is in the bedroom. But we do the same thing. So we want to make sure that in those cases, we want positive pressure in multifamily or, you know, those types of locations because, you know, you don't necessarily like the smell of fish being reheated in the.
00:45:43:22 - 00:45:45:13
Matt Power: Game or cooking or whatever. Right?
00:45:45:16 - 00:45:46:20
Russell Pope: Right. Yeah.
00:45:46:22 - 00:45:47:10
Matt Power: So you want.
00:45:47:10 - 00:46:06:12
Russell Pope: To pressurize that space to, to make sure that you're not sucking in other stuff. So that's, that's one of the things that people really like that feature to be able to positively pressure or if they have a specific need to negatively pressurize, you can actually do that with the tighter building on bullets. Now, if it's like a ghost farmhouse or dungeon.
00:46:06:13 - 00:46:27:03
Matt Power: You know, and I can imagine especially, you know, you buy a luxury condo somewhere you don't expect to be breathing in your neighbors cooking, right? I mean, right, you have high expectations. You're going to be they're going to have some very upset buyers if, you know, if they're not, if their space does not feel like their space in terms of air.
00:46:27:07 - 00:46:28:00
Matt Power: Right.
00:46:28:02 - 00:46:29:04
Todd Usher: So right.
00:46:29:06 - 00:46:30:19
Matt Power: Right. Argument made there.
00:46:30:25 - 00:46:59:15
Todd Usher: Well, that, you know, and I think the another point there when it comes to pollutants is not only the fresh air in, but the bad air out. So any RV obviously does that. But also your bath fans and your range hood. Making sure that those are terminated outside of the building is huge. And, you know, we talked about it when we were talking earlier this this week is older homes where that bath and just pipe right up into the attic right.
00:46:59:18 - 00:47:21:13
Todd Usher: You guys were reminded me of my first college apartment where when we ran the dryer, it went into the wall and it didn't come out anywhere. So the whole place smelled like whatever your laundry sheet or detergent was. And it was like, this is weird. Is getting really humid and musty in here because the dryer was piped into the building cavity.
00:47:21:15 - 00:47:21:27
Todd Usher: You know.
00:47:22:00 - 00:47:25:00
Matt Power: You sell those, that you sell those as energy saving the.
00:47:25:00 - 00:47:27:11
Todd Usher: Boxes, right? You put water on it and.
00:47:27:11 - 00:47:31:14
Matt Power: It would save you energy, but it also grow black mold in the wall.
00:47:31:14 - 00:47:33:00
Todd Usher: But that's right, that's right.
00:47:33:03 - 00:47:35:10
Matt Power: Yeah. Exactly. Now all the.
00:47:35:10 - 00:47:35:29
Todd Usher: Time energy.
00:47:35:29 - 00:47:37:01
Mike Collignon: Savings.
00:47:37:03 - 00:47:55:25
Matt Power: Yeah. I mean we definitely come a long way since then. You know, we're getting close to ten minutes, so maybe, maybe we ought to take a few questions if, you know, save a couple minutes. As somebody says, Nicholas Phillips says, unfortunately, I see a lot of brand new homes that still don't dedicate their exhaust fans to the outdoors.
00:47:55:25 - 00:47:59:06
Matt Power: I think that's true. Yeah, well, it's into the. Yeah. Go ahead.
00:47:59:06 - 00:48:14:17
Todd Usher: Todd I mean, in in our market, the code does not require that we terminate the range hood fan to the outdoors. We can still have the recirculating fan with a carbon filter, which, you know, when I go into a house and see that it's just so ridiculous. It really.
00:48:14:17 - 00:48:28:22
Matt Power: Is. They've done the research. They've done the research on it. They said, no way. Those is basically when they're new, they catch about 20% of the particles. And then it goes down from there. Right? So right. So they never really.
00:48:28:24 - 00:49:00:29
Todd Usher: And and and the research also shows that the bulk of particulates come from cooking. And so especially if you're using natural gas or propane, the particulate that come off of that combustion is I mean, it's amazing. I've taken a particle counter above my gas range and seen that firsthand. But, you know, folks like cooking with gas is just very important to have that range hood and to use it and make sure it's ducted outside.
00:49:00:29 - 00:49:02:03
Todd Usher: You got to get it outside.
00:49:02:09 - 00:49:13:25
Matt Power: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see, do we want to go back to Mike, back to you. And, if you've got any questions, we could we could try to tackle a few questions in the last few minutes here.
00:49:13:28 - 00:49:36:08
Mike Collignon: Yeah, not a problem at all. We've got, a couple of questions, and then if others do have questions, please go ahead and send those in via the Q&A box or option down below. Jan wanted to know, going back to the air filters, the, those kind of cheaper 30 day filters, do those allow particles into the air handler.
00:49:36:10 - 00:49:40:14
Matt Power: Or are they are you talking about one inch filters or.
00:49:40:17 - 00:49:46:05
Mike Collignon: No measurement given in the question. It was just, you know, some of those, cheaper, cheaper 30 day.
00:49:46:05 - 00:49:50:21
Matt Power: Filters, probably, I'd say. Yeah. So that is probably what she's talking about. Todd,
00:49:50:23 - 00:50:24:11
Todd Usher: Yeah. Probably so. And you know that that bears bears mentioning too, that you need to be very careful. When you have an existing home that was not designed for a high efficiency filter, of adding high efficient filters to that, because those can actually reduce or increase the static pressure, the resistance to airflow to the unit and make the fan blower work a lot harder and in worst case, could make it fail prematurely so that you could burn it out.
00:50:24:11 - 00:50:40:18
Todd Usher: So you want to be very careful of upgrading your filters. If the system was not designed for those. But generally you can think the the thinner the filter doesn't matter if you can't see through it or not. If you can see through it, it's not great filter. Right.
00:50:40:22 - 00:50:41:21
Matt Power: You know.
00:50:41:24 - 00:50:48:06
Todd Usher: We always talk about the the spun bonded blue filters. Those are to keep the animals out of the air.
00:50:48:06 - 00:50:49:21
Matt Power: And, you know, mice don't.
00:50:49:21 - 00:51:17:23
Todd Usher: Catch the mice, but they're not catching many particulates. But even the thin filters, as you get into the higher rated, effectiveness, they're not going to be anywhere near the capability of the thicker four and five inch pleated filters. The four and five inch have so much more surface area, they don't actually reduce that airflow as much as the thin filters that are that are more effective.
00:51:17:25 - 00:51:19:07
Todd Usher: So be careful.
00:51:19:07 - 00:51:46:03
Matt Power: Come back to your trade guys. Do you know, like if your trade guys you know or people I shouldn't say guys, but if they know what they're doing right there, right to know the difference between a particular filter and basically just a casual more for appearance than anything else filter. So, you know, it is probably going to cost a little bit more for an Hvac system that has a good four inch filtration system and a powerful enough blower fan.
00:51:46:03 - 00:51:52:11
Matt Power: So you are going to spend a little more, but it's going to I mean, be it's going to be worth it over the years.
00:51:52:13 - 00:52:18:22
Todd Usher: Yeah, there's some great resources online. If you if you just Google EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, Merv M RV, the EPA has a great resource guide that will kind of guide you on Merv ratings and what that means in terms of particulate, capture. So that can be a great tool to evaluate this filter versus another.
00:52:18:24 - 00:52:30:18
Mike Collignon: Well, that's that's where the follow up question from Jan comes from, actually, isn't it wise on older systems to use a Merv six or less? That's, that's the question that was asked.
00:52:30:20 - 00:52:34:15
Todd Usher: That that's a, that's one of those. It depends. Right.
00:52:34:20 - 00:52:35:09
Matt Power: It's like, you.
00:52:35:09 - 00:52:36:14
Russell Pope: Know.
00:52:36:16 - 00:52:52:22
Todd Usher: When my students asked me questions about the real world, you know, there's, often we laugh because I say it depends so many times and, and really, it depends on your system and how the ductwork was designed as to what impact even a Merv six might have on it.
00:52:52:25 - 00:53:02:05
Matt Power: Yeah. Yeah. You're a little bit stuck though. You know if you've got an older system you're looking at, it's a pretty expensive upgrade. You know it.
00:53:02:05 - 00:53:24:08
Todd Usher: Sure. It sure can be because often that means redoing the duct work. The duct work is what kind of establishes that that pressure drop across the air handler. And if you don't have enough capacity for an additional pressure drop, then you're typically going to have to replace duct work and make it larger.
00:53:24:10 - 00:53:44:11
Matt Power: Yeah, I'd add to that. One thing Jan too, is, is to make sure that ductwork is sealed properly. Right. So you're right is that there's no leaks in it. You know, if possible, it's insulated because, you know, you start getting, you know, cellulose or fiberglass insulation, dust in the air from the attic, you can really add to your particulate load without even knowing it.
00:53:44:11 - 00:53:48:16
Matt Power: So definitely. Right. And then, of course, Mike.
00:53:48:19 - 00:54:20:08
Mike Collignon: Yeah, yeah. Lots of lots of good questions coming into here, guys. So, if we could get to a couple more here. Nanette, I thought this was a good question. You talked about the different, audiences. Matt. Yeah. What what common appliance or a commonly used appliance or technology? Could you relate? Kind of give us a comparable when you're talking about the energy consumed by either an ERV or a continuous exhaust fan?
00:54:20:10 - 00:54:22:26
Matt Power: Russ, if you want to take that one.
00:54:22:28 - 00:54:47:18
Russell Pope: So it it so I'm, I'm assuming the amount of energy that it takes to run it the device. All right. These are typically 50W or less for or for RVs for most of the products that we have here, you're certainly always less than 100W, which is the the one light bulb. But like our exhaust fans, for example, running run, the continuous speed, it might be 7 or 8W, which yeah.
00:54:47:19 - 00:55:08:06
Russell Pope: Yeah, it's it's almost immeasurable. Your, your computer, when it's plugged in and not even turned on consumes more power than a continuously exhausting fan. But the part that you have to be careful of then, is it's cheap to move air in and out of a building. The expensive part is reheating it, cooling it, humidifying it, or humidifying it.
00:55:08:09 - 00:55:18:04
Russell Pope: So that's part of finding the right balance. But the actual energy consumed of the devices is very small, for the air movement portion of it.
00:55:18:04 - 00:55:27:23
Matt Power: Now with it and, and the idea is it's saving you energy as well. Right. Like the RV because it's exchanging energy, you know, the energy in the air.
00:55:27:26 - 00:55:52:17
Russell Pope: Yeah. And there are some calculations. So we've been working with eco trope. An eco trope is one of the rating software program groups. And, you know, we're having them look at those. Give us an example of a home in a very cold climate that is just doing, not using an energy recovery ventilator. And let's do those calculations and come through and see what that difference is and see how that affects the Hertz ratings.
00:55:52:17 - 00:56:11:12
Russell Pope: And we found some pretty substantial information that, is beneficial as we look through those things and see how do we start adding value to those other metrics of an RV, and how do we put that into, you know, things that the builders can use to help chisel down their her score?
00:56:11:15 - 00:56:23:20
Matt Power: Yeah. And especially, you know, if your answer before having the RV is to open a window or crack, you know, the amount of energy you're losing that the savings of the RV is going to dwarf that.
00:56:23:22 - 00:56:44:03
Todd Usher: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you have to keep in mind too. We haven't mentioned this, but he RVs incorporate filtration into the RV. So you're filtering that fresh air. You bring it in and you know, it's not just like opening a window on a on a spring full of pollen day. Right? That's all getting filtered out.
00:56:44:06 - 00:56:47:28
Russell Pope: Yeah. The old blue filters are much better than a window screen.
00:56:48:01 - 00:56:52:17
Todd Usher: Right? Right. That's right. Yeah, but they both catch birds.
00:56:52:19 - 00:56:55:24
Matt Power: Right? And.
00:56:55:26 - 00:57:06:07
Mike Collignon: Hey, Clement had a question about, what's the latest information on electrostatic slide in filters?
00:57:06:09 - 00:57:10:11
Todd Usher: Electrostatic, you know, slide and slide and slide.
00:57:10:11 - 00:57:19:21
Matt Power: I'm sorry. You probably. Do you have any in your, sometimes they're used with the four inch, filters. A do you have happen to install those totter.
00:57:19:22 - 00:57:48:21
Todd Usher: Yeah. I mean, the big the big thing is if they're powered, then you have to be very careful because many of those types of electrostatic filters generate, ozone. And ozone is, is a lung irritant. So we generally don't want ozone to be produced and added to the house. I, I do remember about 30 years ago when I started discovering my crawl space connectedness with my house.
00:57:48:21 - 00:58:13:10
Todd Usher: Before I sealed it, I went to one of the Hvac suppliers and they had this washable electrostatic they called it. It wasn't powered filter. And I don't think those filters have Merv ratings to speak of. So, I would stick with media filters that are Merv rated as, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
00:58:13:10 - 00:58:27:22
Matt Power: Yeah. I mean, I have heard good things about the UV lights, you know, the type that essentially that kill viruses and that sort of thing. They're pretty easy to add on to. But that would be specifically for virus, not for particulate removal.
00:58:27:25 - 00:58:43:28
Todd Usher: Yeah. And and I don't believe I mean, I think much of the debate on the UV light is the UV light definitely can sanitize the area inside the air handler that the light is hitting, but it really can't sanitize the air as the air is through you.
00:58:43:28 - 00:58:44:21
Russell Pope: Fast, right?
00:58:44:21 - 00:58:48:29
Todd Usher: Yeah, yeah. It's too fast. Too fast. Not enough dwell time. Yeah.
00:58:49:01 - 00:58:53:03
Matt Power: So, Mike, why don't you throw a couple more out as well before we run out of time here?
00:58:53:05 - 00:59:17:05
Mike Collignon: Oh, yeah. Definitely. This one really is probably more for Russell. So Byron is going to build a, a new, new construction, and I'm doing it on spec, and Byron is looking for a recommendation on how to market some of these upcoming projects that he's got with the Panasonic Oasis system, to help make it kind of a greater appeal to his demographic.
00:59:17:07 - 00:59:18:24
Mike Collignon: Any suggestions there?
00:59:18:27 - 00:59:37:29
Russell Pope: Yeah. No. Absolutely. So definitely reach out to our team. The Oasis system. Todd, I don't know if you've seen it, but it has some of that. The similarities as far as continually moving the air, where were you right when he splits and exhaust fans to do you know, high volumes of air move through the house very quietly.
00:59:38:06 - 01:00:07:00
Russell Pope: So definitely, Mike, there's opportunities for the further Oasis discussions. And most of that ties to the things that Todd talked about the comfort, the distribution of fresh air evenly, the consistent temperature throughout the entire home, and the quiet operation. You know, most of the time, if there's noise related to that system, it's probably velocity noise. You know, that that you're trying to put too much through the wrong type of register or something like that.
01:00:07:00 - 01:00:12:23
Russell Pope: So it's it's stable comfort levels, quiet, very energy efficient.
01:00:12:23 - 01:00:35:23
Matt Power: So definitely for people who don't know, the Oasis system is is a Panasonic initiative. And I think it's like if you're going to the builder show or the air, you probably could learn all about it. We decided not to get too much into detail on this, but it is pretty cool. It's got, you know, a lot of their products and, a lot of the most innovative, you know, smart science connected with it.
01:00:35:23 - 01:00:40:15
Matt Power: So if you want to learn more about it, I would, I would go look that up on their website to start with.
01:00:40:15 - 01:00:52:18
Russell Pope: And see the data from this week in Houston. Because it is built in Houston, we purposefully built it in the, you know, one of the worst climates possible for trying to manage moisture.
01:00:52:20 - 01:00:55:11
Matt Power: Yeah, yeah. How about another one, Mike?
01:00:55:14 - 01:00:57:27
Mike Collignon: Oh, yeah. We got we got plenty more. Matt.
01:00:57:27 - 01:01:04:25
Matt Power: If you can stay a little late for you guys, I think we got a couple minutes extra. We get that on? Yeah. Get some point. Yeah.
01:01:04:27 - 01:01:16:21
Mike Collignon: Okay. Awesome. So Nicholas wanted to know, can you talk about the need for calibrating built in IQ sensors for the sake of system longevity?
01:01:17:25 - 01:01:44:01
Russell Pope: So the the residential type devices are self calibrating. Okay. And so, but they're a completely different level. So when I talk about most of the common residential indoor air quality sensors, there's a significant difference between the residential grade, the commercial grade and then the laboratory grade. Right? So yeah, most of what we're looking for on the residential side are just a trend indicator.
01:01:44:08 - 01:02:21:20
Russell Pope: You know, it's a it's not precise, but it's definitely relevant readings that we're concerned about. So if something has changed, to a level that is relatively or relevantly not acceptable compared to how it was before example, then we know that something needs to be addressed. So that's where a lot of the residentials are. The other part of that is the equipment is available, but the cost implications of that are, significant different, you know, tenfold cost differences and some of that equipment, and need for continuous maintenance and calibration and those types of things.
01:02:21:22 - 01:02:28:14
Matt Power: You have a don't you have a partner that you work with? Panasonic also that does certain, you know, plug in modules, that sort of thing?
01:02:28:14 - 01:02:58:21
Russell Pope: Yeah. Those are the Swigert devices. So those are they're incorporating either wall switches or receptacles with, Wi-Fi modules to communicate. And we actually have communication devices for our RVs and some of our premium things like the Whisper Green select that we can do some of those, more advanced, things like if your exhaust fan is turned on, for example, then it will tell the ERV, for example, to supplement an additional CFM, you know, supplement 30 more because the exhaust fan turned on.
01:02:58:21 - 01:03:08:07
Russell Pope: So we're utilizing those systems to automatically balance, and try to do some of the, the future technologies.
01:03:08:09 - 01:03:10:15
Matt Power: Yeah.
01:03:10:18 - 01:03:18:05
Mike Collignon: Question for Muhammad. What is the panel's opinion about flexible duct hoses? In Hvac systems?
01:03:18:07 - 01:03:20:04
Matt Power: Let's let Todd take that one. Yeah.
01:03:20:04 - 01:03:51:05
Todd Usher: Yeah, sure. So, you know, it's very interesting. Duct work is a is very much a regionally, variable thing. So if you're up in the North, Midwest, up north, everything's going to generally be hard. Square duct, rectangular duct. If you're down south where I am, most of the systems are going to use flexible duct or a combination of rigid trunks and flexible supply.
01:03:51:07 - 01:04:18:22
Todd Usher: Runs and and flex duct can be fine as long as it's installed properly and designed for so flex duct does have greater static pressure drop or resistance to airflow. But as long as it's designed for in the systems design. Again, back to the importance of a thorough duct design on every house. Flex duct can work great.
01:04:18:24 - 01:04:24:15
Matt Power: And what's a common mistake, Todd? What's a mistake in duct design that people make frequently?
01:04:24:22 - 01:04:44:19
Todd Usher: Well, I think most of the mistakes are probably made in duct installation, not install, not design. And, I'd say the most common with flex duct is flex duct comes in 25ft lengths, typically. But that doesn't mean you have to use all 25ft whole thing.
01:04:44:19 - 01:04:45:14
Matt Power: Yeah, yeah.
01:04:45:14 - 01:04:52:08
Todd Usher: So if you take that and leave it, you're going to lose, tons of airflow out of that, out of that. Right.
01:04:52:08 - 01:04:53:17
Matt Power: So yeah. Yeah.
01:04:53:17 - 01:05:01:13
Todd Usher: That's right. They need to be pulled taut and and have very wide, smooth sweeps when they make a turn.
01:05:01:15 - 01:05:05:17
Matt Power: But when you make it hard and clean too, right. If it's the you get this.
01:05:05:19 - 01:05:41:23
Todd Usher: Oh sure. If it's all kinked and yeah, kinked and snake like that. Definitely. Yeah. But on bad fans. Yeah. Since we're talking ventilation you know our standard even though we're using a, somewhat self-adjusting, the Whisper Green fans with Panasonic, we still run hard pipe on all of our bath fan run outs. And then at the very end, we may transition to a short piece of flex to go out to the, the, the hood on the outside of the house or through the soffit.
01:05:41:26 - 01:05:54:13
Todd Usher: But that smooth, straight, hard pipe is going to give us the least amount of pressure resistance, to flow on both ends. So kind of depends on the application.
01:05:54:16 - 01:05:56:27
Matt Power: Okay, let's, let's take two more. Mike.
01:05:57:00 - 01:06:07:07
Mike Collignon: All right. Sounds good. So Aaron had a question. I haven't heard anyone mention radon. How do mitigation systems fit into this conversation?
01:06:07:10 - 01:06:09:01
Russell Pope: It depends. Right. Todd.
01:06:09:04 - 01:06:36:17
Todd Usher: Yeah, well, it does, it does. I can speak to you. I can speak to you from a radon, level one zone, which is, you know, our home county, Greenville County, is the only level one Radon County in South Carolina. So we're forced to install, well, forced by code. We have to install radon ventilation system. Passive radon ventilation system really doesn't tie into any of these other ventilation systems.
01:06:36:17 - 01:07:02:15
Todd Usher: We're talking about other than you want to give radon from beneath the slab or beneath the vapor barrier in the crawl space. An easy path to take up and out. And EPA has some great resources on best practices for radon in our market. The code requires a three inch diameter pipe. We use a four because EPA says, and that four inch pipe will move a lot more air.
01:07:02:18 - 01:07:21:03
Todd Usher: And we put a radon passive radon ventilation system in every home, whether code requires it or not. So it is part of that comprehensive indoor air quality approach is to incorporate, at least a passive radon venting system in every home.
01:07:21:05 - 01:07:42:18
Matt Power: And we I think, you know, I used to live up north and, you know, where there's granite underground. And, we had a lot of radon issues. And I remember a house where we put a radon fan out, but we depressurized the basement, and it caused more radon to come in. Oh, yeah. Areas of the basement. So you know, kind of hands on your region again, right?
01:07:42:21 - 01:07:46:28
Matt Power: You know, with it, I think the passive one would would definitely be preferable if you can do it that way.
01:07:47:05 - 01:07:59:26
Todd Usher: Well, in in every market, there's going to be a, an industry dedicated just to radon ventilation, with, with radon mitigation companies that are experts in that in that area.
01:07:59:29 - 01:08:17:00
Matt Power: Yeah, I did I did want to point out if anybody has questions that don't get answered, we will answer all of them by by email. So, if you would, maybe Mike can collect them, send them to us. We'll make sure everybody gets your your questions answered. Why don't you give us one more to answer live and then the rest will do.
01:08:17:03 - 01:08:19:00
Matt Power: You know, individually by email. Yeah.
01:08:19:07 - 01:08:25:05
Mike Collignon: I'll let Russell chime in on this. Right on. Okay. That's true. He wanted to say something that, Sure, sure.
01:08:25:07 - 01:08:54:07
Russell Pope: There are some ERP systems. You know, sometimes if you increase the er, exchange rate, you can still reduce the, the amount of radon. But at the same time, if you're in one of those areas, we would still, rather than trying to use a system that that can help, we would say, you know, create the solution instead, you know, do something like the dedicated fan that to to deal with that specifically, kind of like cooking you want to exhaust from the cooking device to the outdoors.
01:08:54:13 - 01:09:04:21
Russell Pope: We could ventilate with ventilation fans and but the best way to manage that is with a raincoat. Same thing with right on. The best way is to manage that with a specific strategy for that region.
01:09:04:23 - 01:09:07:15
Matt Power: At the source. Yeah, yeah yeah.
01:09:07:18 - 01:09:30:22
Mike Collignon: All right. Final question. We're going to take here. And like I said, we'll get the other ones that we haven't gotten to and we'll get those to our panelists. I comes from Netanya. Are there methods available for informing and educating home owners of the maintenance needed on RVs? He apparently has seen units have become health hazards because occupants are new owners.
01:09:30:28 - 01:09:47:20
Mike Collignon: They don't ever go up in their attics and the yearly maintenance is neglected. So, what advice do you both, you know, from both the builder side, the manufacturer side, what advice do you guys give when it comes to the regular maintenance, upkeep of these systems?
01:09:47:23 - 01:09:49:01
Matt Power: You want to go first, Russ?
01:09:49:03 - 01:10:09:00
Russell Pope: Yeah. So, you know, our exposure is limited. A lot of the time to, you know, when the equipment is installed and the recommendations there. So, you know, we still try to do all we can with social media and other means. But the at some point, once it's turned over, they have to know that it's there. Right?
01:10:09:01 - 01:10:32:08
Russell Pope: They have to know, especially when you have a buy and sell situation. The original owner knows, probably because they had an install. But then when that person moves out, how does the next person know? And I know a lot of builders are addressing that with actual manuals. So we see a lot, a lot of them, like a lot of the folks in the eBay community, will actually build this binder of, hey, this is your home.
01:10:32:12 - 01:10:34:18
Russell Pope: These are the things to take care of. And we include information.
01:10:34:22 - 01:10:45:11
Matt Power: Is there also an argument not to put it in the attic? You know, put it somewhere like a mechanical room or something where it's accessible. Easier to get for somebody to get to. Yeah.
01:10:45:11 - 01:10:51:22
Russell Pope: Mechanical room. I think, close to the occupied space is always preferable. But square footage is.
01:10:51:22 - 01:10:55:10
Matt Power: Going to always happen, right? Always. Yeah. Right. Right.
01:10:55:13 - 01:11:29:24
Todd Usher: Yeah. And I'll say that, you know, some of our early RV installs, we learned, after the fact that maintenance was an issue and probably didn't appreciate the importance of that maintenance and regular filter changes ourselves and had failures of RV systems because the homeowner didn't change the filter, didn't clean the RV. So we we do give our clients a homeowner manual and there is information in there about the filters that need to be changed, but they have to read it.
01:11:29:26 - 01:12:00:02
Todd Usher: And, you know, when we come in at our one year visit, we do include changing all the filters for the homeowner and, try to educate them as much as possible about the importance of that. We've we've kind of rolled out a maintenance plan, haven't had many people take us up on it. But, you know, in trying to provide some, some accountability to making sure all of those components are maintained and updated regularly.
01:12:00:04 - 01:12:19:11
Matt Power: Yeah, I will say in defense of the areas a little bit is you don't have, you know, because I own 2 or 3 of them that I run all the time. It's just there's a little filter and then there's the core. So it's the little filter, and, you don't have to do it that much. It's probably every few months I go and I take it out and usually replace it.
01:12:19:13 - 01:12:37:27
Matt Power: But if you keep that filter clean, the core tends to stay clean. Now, I also have asked Panasonic about this. In the worst case scenario, you can replace the core after a few years, which is sort of that, you know, the central, it's a pretty easy, almost a DIY level replacement to, to put a new core in one.
01:12:37:27 - 01:12:57:25
Matt Power: So they're about the same maintenance, I would say, as a mini split, you know, where you got to take the filter? I got to clean it. What would be nice? I would say, you know, for some for you to think about if there was a reusable, renewable one, I would love that because the filters are kind of pricey when you got to keep, you know, a regular supply.
01:12:57:26 - 01:12:58:11
Matt Power: But yeah.
01:12:58:17 - 01:13:16:24
Russell Pope: Yeah, I'm sure that there's a bunch of Panasonic people chomping at the bit. I forgot to talk about a very important feature of the IH RVs now, and that's the fall indication. So part of the stuff that we've done, Todd, and you've heard it, Department of Energy has talked about this for a long time for the exact reason that people forget about it.
01:13:16:27 - 01:13:44:01
Russell Pope: We want to address that. So we do have fault indication display in the units. Now that get those reminders. Now it might be a chirp. You know, kind of like that annoyance. So you can override. But we want to make sure that we're notifying people. We have a new wall displays that really are handy, that it's visible and it's it gives those reminders and it's measuring pressure in the unit to to notify you need to maintain the product, the other.
01:13:44:02 - 01:13:48:21
Matt Power: And that doesn't mean it's broken either. That doesn't it just means property maintenance building.
01:13:48:26 - 01:13:49:22
Todd Usher: Yeah. Right.
01:13:49:25 - 01:13:52:08
Matt Power: So that's a nice that's a nice heads up.
01:13:52:10 - 01:13:55:06
Russell Pope: And we are introducing washable filters as well.
01:13:55:08 - 01:13:56:10
Matt Power: So oh good.
01:13:56:13 - 01:14:11:13
Russell Pope: And that's particularly important sometimes in multifamily where yeah. You know when you're talking about going in and changing filters 3 or 4 times a year and they may be $10 filters and 500 units. You do the math. That adds up really quickly.
01:14:11:13 - 01:14:12:14
Matt Power: Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:12:18 - 01:14:17:26
Russell Pope: Now the washable filter isn't as good, but it certainly costs a lot less.
01:14:17:28 - 01:14:31:20
Matt Power: Right? Right? Right. Right, right. Yeah, well I agree. Well, thank you guys. I think we'd better. We better call it right. I think everybody's got stuff to do, but, Thank you. Both. And I'll hand it back. Absolutely. Kind of safe.
01:14:31:23 - 01:14:55:19
Mike Collignon: Yeah. And thank you to Matt for leading the discussion. I really do appreciate it. Matt. Todd, Russell, thanks so much for sharing your insight with us. And, or a wonderful audience for all those questions that we got, too and the ones that we didn't, but we will get to by email. Been collecting those. And then also thank you to Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions for their generous sponsorship of this webinar.
01:14:55:21 - 01:15:13:15
Mike Collignon: Our next webinars, speaking of webinars will take place in two weeks. It'll be on February the 11th. We'll be back with you to report on generational marketing that's going to be with Sarah Gutterman. We'll get started. Our usual time up 2 p.m. eastern. Until next time, have a great Groundhog's Day and stay safe. Stay healthy and take care everyone.
01:15:13:16 - 01:15:14:28
Mike Collignon: So on.
01:15:15:01 - 01:15:15:14
Matt Power: Thank you.