Climate Anxiety Unmasked

00:00:00:14 - 00:00:20:25
Sara Gutterman: So hello and welcome. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Sarah Gutman, I'm the CEO of Green Builder Media, and we are so happy to have you here today with us to talk with our friend and climate anxiety expert, Kate, who will get to in just a second. But let me just set up some context for today's conversation.

00:00:21:00 - 00:00:48:11
Sara Gutterman: I think that we all know you're here today because you know that climate change has a powerful impact on our psychology and years of intensifying super storms and wildfires and extreme temperatures have spurred an increasing level of eco anxiety, particularly in younger generations, and so much so that an emerging medical field of eco psychology, which studies the psychological impact of climate change, has been growing.

00:00:48:14 - 00:01:37:21
Sara Gutterman: And we're really watching that field and seeing a lot of mental health professionals become experts in that area. And the discipline is expanding substantially. And we're really excited to help do everything that we can to facilitate that conversation about mental health and climate, because, as I mentioned, that climate anxiety is particularly intense among millennials and Gen Z and in fact, Green Builder Media's market intelligence division, Cognition Smart Data, shows that about 87% of these younger individuals report that they're worried about climate change, and 56% believe that humanity is doomed because of climate change.

00:01:37:22 - 00:02:19:00
Sara Gutterman: That's not 6% or 16%. 56% is substantial. And again, a lot of these younger generations, through our cognition, smart data, tell us that they have a high level of guilt and shame about their own impact on the environment. 61% report that they feel guilty about their own negative impact on the environment, and 45% feel shame. 75% of these younger individuals report feelings of sadness, anger, powerlessness and helplessness when it comes to mitigating the impact of climate change, and over half feel ignored when they try to express their climate anxiety.

00:02:19:00 - 00:02:54:22
Sara Gutterman: And they're largely pissed off at older generations for ignoring climate science. So that's why we think that today's conversation with Kate Shapira is so important. And again, we really welcome you here. Kate has been listening to people about climate change for about a decade at the Climate Anxiety Counseling booth and elsewhere. She lives in Providence, Rhode Island, where she teaches nonfiction writing at Brown University and as an excuse me and is involved with local efforts towards environmental justice, climate justice and pure mental health.

00:02:54:22 - 00:03:24:13
Sara Gutterman: Support the exercises. In her first work of nonfiction, lessons from the Climate Anxiety Counseling Booth, offer actionable steps for connecting with others, identifying and activating community abundance, matching skills with organized climate activism, and imagining a radically more livable future in order to bring it into being. So with that, Kate, I'm going to kick it over to you. And again, thank you so much for being here.

00:03:24:13 - 00:03:29:14
Sara Gutterman: And I for one, I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say today.

00:03:29:16 - 00:03:57:27
Kate Schapira: Thank you Sarah, thank you. And thank you everybody for sharing part of your day with me and with each other. Yes, absolutely. I will put not only the title, but a link to the to where you can buy the book. In the meantime, as I'm saying a little bit more about my work, what I've done, and what I have to share with you today, if you would be willing to put in the chat your name and a climate change impact where you're living, or one that matters to you.

00:03:58:00 - 00:04:08:16
Kate Schapira: And I can model that. So my name is Kate. I live in Providence, R.I.. Arrogance at land.

00:04:08:18 - 00:04:22:04
Kate Schapira: And we're we're really feeling the impacts of sea level rise where we're living. And I hate sea level rise.

00:04:22:06 - 00:04:45:11
Kate Schapira: So you can do that if you wish. Just to let folks know, obviously your names we can see but a little bit about what's on your mind. And part of the reason that inviting you to do that is when I started listening to people at the climate counseling the number of years ago. Actually, it's it is ten years ago this year, May 2014, was when I started.

00:04:45:14 - 00:05:11:05
Kate Schapira: I was feeling extremely alone and isolated in the way the the impact that climate change was having on the land where I lived, the air, the water, but also how I felt about it. I would try to talk with people about how severe the impacts were, how frightened I was, how angry I was, and just I was. Those conversations kept getting stuck.

00:05:11:07 - 00:05:38:11
Kate Schapira: And when I built my little booth, which looks like the little booth that Lucy has in peanuts, if people remember that comic strip, it says Climate Anxiety Counseling $0.05. The doctor is in. It's made out of cardboard. I set it up in the big bus station downtown in Providence, where everybody comes and changes busses, and I just wanted a framework for talking with people about this.

00:05:38:11 - 00:06:13:18
Kate Schapira: I wanted to see was I really alone? Was I nuts? Was my response to extreme? Were other people not bothered by this, or if they weren't bothered about what were they worried about? What was stressing people out, what was consuming people's minds and emotions in the way that my kind of recognition of climate change, ecological destruction, and then later also climate injustice that was having this effect on me, I'm seeing so I'm seeing impact on temperature and rising waters, urban heat, island impacts.

00:06:13:18 - 00:06:43:11
Kate Schapira: Yes. Don't love those either. We have those in Providence also, especially on the south side where a lot of people who are who are lower income people of color, disabled people, elders are living, toxins leaking into the James River while seeing a lot of wildfires and wildfire smoke. Also, sea level rise, hard summers, losing winter, loss of snowpack, excess rainwater and humidity.

00:06:43:14 - 00:07:02:13
Kate Schapira: So grateful for all of you for sharing these. I hope that just even seeing these, I'm seeing a bunch of them double up. And I'm hoping that just even seeing these is doing for you what the climate anxiety counseling started to do for me, which is reminding me that I was not alone, that we are not alone, that we are facing these impacts together.

00:07:02:13 - 00:07:24:22
Kate Schapira: We are experiencing them together, even though the impacts may be more severe for some of us more, some of us may have fewer resources to deal with them than others, and that we will address that as we have this conversation, but that we this is a shared experience. This is a shared human experience. And talking about it when you're when something is real, talking about it is never the problem.

00:07:24:27 - 00:07:54:26
Kate Schapira: So I appreciate you sharing. I'm seeing waste management impact of climate change on wildlife. Again, so grateful to you for sharing these experiences. So climate anxiety as a as a phenomenon has, as Sarah said, been getting a little bit more attention lately, and I use that term I'm not. So just full disclosure, I'm not a psychologist. I don't have a side.

00:07:54:27 - 00:08:28:01
Kate Schapira: I don't even have a PhD. I started doing this based on my own emotions and then very quickly found out, as I said, that it was a shared experience, that I wanted to listen to people more and more about. But it has gotten a lot more attention, I think, in the news lately. And the way that I use the term climate anxiety is it's any strong, fearful emotion that you have about what climate change has done, is doing and or will do in the world.

00:08:28:03 - 00:08:54:03
Kate Schapira: That could be I survived a terrible storm and I'm afraid of the next storm. It could be. I don't know what my kids future or my grandkids future is going to look like, and I'm worried about that. Or I'm trying to get my mind around the possibility of the future at all. It could be anything in between that.

00:08:54:03 - 00:09:18:26
Kate Schapira: So I think sometimes there's a focus in these discussions on people who are afraid of losing what they haven't lost yet, and that may apply to you. It's also equally true to describe climate anxiety as the feeling that you have of losing even more than you've already lost, or what those impacts are going to mean for your present and future.

00:09:18:28 - 00:09:34:27
Kate Schapira: Does that does anybody have questions about what climate anxiety even is? You could raise a hand or you could put them in the in the chat.

00:09:34:29 - 00:09:49:24
Kate Schapira: Any questions about what it is or how you've heard people talk about it. We can also ask those at the end if you would like. So if you don't want to ask them now, hang on to them. You will have room for all questions later. So no, go ahead. I do.

00:09:49:24 - 00:10:03:27
Victoria Muharsky: Have a quick question. So in your experience, do most people like express it in like in like nervousness or do you see anger or almost depression? Like, is there a range of emotions or is it more just one?

00:10:03:29 - 00:10:29:12
Kate Schapira: There's a range. And thanks for bringing that up to you, Victoria, because I feel like I sort of locked myself in when I started this by accident, by describing it as climate anxiety. I don't think that's even really accurate to the situation. Absolutely. Anger, I hear despair, I hear loneliness, I hear grief, I hear frustration, I hear a kind of like, like a like a deadness in the heart from some people.

00:10:29:12 - 00:10:52:22
Kate Schapira: They don't. Exactly. And also, I hear people who don't really put it in terms of emotions at all. They say I'm overwhelmed or I'm stressed or even just tired. By living in this time, I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed and tired. Life is hard. Sometimes you will say things like, it is what it is, which is like a huge like flag for me.

00:10:52:22 - 00:11:10:29
Kate Schapira: I'm like, okay, let's, you know, let's talk about that a little bit more. Why is it that way? Do you feel like this is the only way that it could be? And trying to kind of open a box that is closed if, if people are ready to open that conversation with me. So, yes, absolutely. There's a range.

00:11:11:01 - 00:11:32:08
Kate Schapira: Sometimes people will say things like what people have said in the chat here, right? They won't say, I'm anxious. They'll say, I can't stand this heat, or they'll say, The Rhode Island Recycled Metals plant caught fire again and poured out toxic smoke into the air that my kids breathe on the playground, which is a thing that happened about a week ago.

00:11:32:10 - 00:11:49:00
Kate Schapira: Truly wild that we could talk about that, too, a little bit later. But one. So one of the things that I feel like I hear in terms of a future fear, is people sort of saying like.

00:11:49:02 - 00:12:15:06
Kate Schapira: Well, how are we going to make room for everybody? Like, what if people move? What if they come here? Or how are we going to feed everybody? Or how can we possibly take care of everybody? How are we going to take care of everybody? What are we going to do? How are we going to in this way? That sort of implies, to me at least, the way that they're asking the question, that they think there isn't a way, that they think there is no way to take care of everybody.

00:12:15:09 - 00:12:35:25
Kate Schapira: They think there is no way to house everybody. I think there is no way to feed everybody. And so the implication is things are going to get violent, things are going to get scary. And I hear this kind of you might think I'd be hearing this mainly from people who are afraid of have a lot or afraid of losing what they have.

00:12:35:26 - 00:13:07:17
Kate Schapira: But I actually kind of hear this across the board from people, which surprises me. But there. But there we are. And so one of the things that I evolved for the book is this exercise, which I call turning it around. And what we're turning around is that question, the question of how are we going to find housing for everybody who needs housing, right?

00:13:07:19 - 00:13:15:20
Kate Schapira: Make it a real question. How are we? Are we going to do that?

00:13:15:22 - 00:13:32:00
Kate Schapira: Climate anxiety is a community problem. Its solutions are community illusion solutions. How are we going to find housing for everybody needs housing. Put it in the chat. What are we going to do?

00:13:32:03 - 00:13:47:29
Kate Schapira: Treat it as a real question. Imagine that somebody had asked you that question in bad faith, and you're going to spit it back to them in good faith. How are we going to do this?

00:13:48:01 - 00:14:13:22
Kate Schapira: Relax. Zoning ordinances? Yes. Thank you. Working on that in Providence right now. Long term rentals instead of Airbnbs. We love to see it. Thank you. By the way Honolulu adaptive reuse Dara I know what that is. Other people probably know what it is. But just in case, throw a little bit of explanation in the chat for us retrofitting existing commercial and office spaces into affordable housing.

00:14:13:23 - 00:14:31:27
Kate Schapira: Love that. That could work with the zoning ordinances as kind of A12 punch. Beautiful. Other things that people can think of. How are we going to house everybody? How are we going to do it? Because we're going to have to do it. How are we going to do it?

00:14:32:00 - 00:15:02:10
Kate Schapira: Again for folks that just came in? So again, this idea of abandoned buildings that aren't being used, converting those into usable spaces, shelters and longer term housing, tiny house communities. Yes. Although in areas where wind is a problem, those can have concerns of their own other ways that we are going to be responsible for one another. A couple other ideas.

00:15:02:10 - 00:15:30:20
Kate Schapira: These are all great prefab and modular 3D printing, higher performance, more cost effective housing, multi general family arrangements. Not I love you for saying that. Yes, absolutely. And there's actually an exercise in my book to have the conversation with people about if they need to come and stay with you, either temporarily or permanently after a disaster, or if you need to go and stay with them.

00:15:30:20 - 00:15:57:16
Kate Schapira: There's a template for having that conversation together. Oh yes. Thank you Mary. Absolutely. Hold on. Putting the link in the chat. Woman. More collective living and communal living. Yes. Housing co-ops where they're possible, are also a great way for people to share space in an equitable way so that everybody has a right to the space. Nobody's there on sufferance.

00:15:57:19 - 00:16:20:08
Kate Schapira: Name of the book and the link of a link to the book is now. Thanks for pointing that out. So it sounds like a lot of possible solutions are represented here, right? Of course, we know that it's easy to have ideas. Sometimes it's a little harder to get ideas to happen, but also sometimes it's hard to even have ideas.

00:16:20:08 - 00:16:46:09
Kate Schapira: And we're going to do an exercise a little bit later on. To kind of build our imagination out even further and more beautifully. But we can draw on the chat for some of those ideas here in the, in the how of that. So another quick question. And you don't have to answer this because there is a question about how you feel and you don't know each other like that.

00:16:46:11 - 00:17:10:09
Kate Schapira: But how did it feel? Think about it. Just notice it how you're feeling. After having been asked and answered that question, just check in with yourself momentarily. Is it exciting? Is it dismaying the moment that you said, oh, we could do this? Did you find another part of your brain going, oh, but like, my city would never go for that.

00:17:10:12 - 00:17:41:08
Kate Schapira: Or like, oh, we tried that. And like, it was so frustrating and it didn't work. So just noticing your own reactions to this and the reason why I'm bringing that forward is whether we know it or not, how we feel affects how we connect and what we do. That actually became a premise of the counseling from the very beginning, that it is worth it to pay attention to how we're feeling about things, not to try to change them, not to try to alter them.

00:17:41:11 - 00:18:02:19
Kate Schapira: Often our feelings are absolutely real, valid, appropriate responses to what we see going on in the world around us. They're not something that we need to try to make go away. And if you do try to make them go away, it usually doesn't work very well. But knowing how you're feeling can help you understand. Okay. What is that feeling asking me to do?

00:18:02:21 - 00:18:21:20
Kate Schapira: And that's another reason why it's worth it to share both the impacts that we care about and how we feel about them with other people. Having those climate conversations, which you don't have to call them that.

00:18:21:23 - 00:19:05:24
Kate Schapira: Is. Stressful for some. I think it depends on your community. But even then I feel like they may surprise you. And the practice of doing so allows what I said before about climate anxiety being a community question with community answers. It allows that to come to the front because if you're able to say to someone, hey, I'm really worried about what's going to happen if the fires come to where we're living and we have no place to go, there is raising the point of frustration, right?

00:19:05:25 - 00:19:28:10
Kate Schapira: So that's another thing might happen that might happen. You might say to someone that, you know, I can see how we could fix this. I can see how we could help each other. And I feel like the people who can make decisions that would capacity that are not listening to me, and it's making me so frustrated, anxiety mixed with hope and energy.

00:19:28:10 - 00:19:54:01
Kate Schapira: Absolutely. Sometimes you can use that anxiety as a kind of like wearing to spin yourself off the wall, to kind of like parkour off the wall and weave into action. I respect it, I don't always have the ability to do it, but I honor it. And then almost a corresponding or complementary approach, finding that thinking about specific possibilities feels calming.

00:19:54:03 - 00:20:24:06
Kate Schapira: That, I think, is another reason why it's worth having these conversations together, both as a group here and then in the communities, maybe especially then in the communities where we live. Because climate change is so big, it affects everything. As we saw someone mentioned before, and everything kind of affects it, but not always in the ways that we would like.

00:20:24:06 - 00:20:49:29
Kate Schapira: Sarah mentioned guilt a little earlier, and I hear that from a ton of people. Right. Feeling a lot of guilt, a lot of shame about the ways that they cannot help but contribute to climate impacts. And partly that's the thought of British Petroleum and their made up idea of the carbon footprint. You could spend all day being mad about that if you wanted to.

00:20:50:00 - 00:21:14:13
Kate Schapira: I often do, but it's also, I think, kind of worth, again, checking in, saying, okay, yes, I feel guilty. Yes. It's frustrating. I am in a trap. It feels like I can't help through my job, through my household, but contribute to the systems that are hurting me. How could I maybe nourish the systems that would not hurt me?

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:40:12
Kate Schapira: How could I nourish the living world? How could I nourish good housing policy? How could I vote from people addressing Mary's point? How could I vote for people? Look into candidates who have very solid climate policy, also very solid housing policy. Also very solid health care policy. All of these issues also very solid education policy. All of these issues interact with climate change because climate change affects everything.

00:21:40:12 - 00:22:34:15
Kate Schapira: It is that interconnectedness is a bug and it's a feature. Pretty much anything that you do to help people survive this time, to create greater equity and justice, to get people where they need to go on. What they tell you is going to reduce the strain that climate change and its impact put on your community or communities, any ease that you can introduce, any safety that you can introduce, any confidence that you can introduce, any lines of communication that you can open, any sense of fairness, that you can increase all of these things, even though they don't necessarily lower emissions directly, they can have a positive impact, not necessarily on emissions, although sometimes you can

00:22:34:15 - 00:22:46:02
Kate Schapira: do something to change systems. But on our ability to weather this time that is upon us, with care, with justice.

00:22:46:04 - 00:23:23:27
Kate Schapira: Hold on. I'm checking my notes. All right. So we're going to do a little another little exercise together. And we're going to use breakout rooms. This is an exercise that's from the last chapter in the book which deals a lot more with imagination. And so we're going to maybe build out some of the points that you all raised in the chat about different ways to create livability in the place where you are, what you're going to do is we're going to place you in some breakout rooms together, people, and you're going to I'll put this in the chat as well.

00:23:23:27 - 00:23:30:15
Kate Schapira: You're going to imagine a day.

00:23:30:17 - 00:23:37:28
Kate Schapira: Livability, well-being in a place where you live.

00:23:38:00 - 00:24:11:10
Kate Schapira: Are complete a call sometimes call this the Liverpool city. But of course, not all of us live in cities. Some of us live in small towns, suburbs in the country. So it's where you live. And living there is healthy and easy and free for the people who live there.

00:24:11:12 - 00:24:15:09
Kate Schapira: What is?

00:24:15:11 - 00:24:23:04
Kate Schapira: How are they moving about?

00:24:23:06 - 00:24:27:23
Kate Schapira: What are they doing for one another?

00:24:27:25 - 00:24:48:23
Kate Schapira: So once you enter your breakout rooms, I want you to imagine this together. And what I want you to also do is if somebody sort of leaves something out, and I have an example that I'll share in a second, bring it up as an addition, not like a correction. So I'm thinking about like, I think a vision that a lot of people maybe have embraced.

00:24:48:23 - 00:25:26:28
Kate Schapira: You live in cities is the idea of a car free city, which sounds great and is great in some ways, but is tough for people who need a car to get around because of the abilities of their body. And so what you might do is say, okay, it's car free except for emergency vehicles, power chairs, adaptive tricycles, other wheeled ways for people to get around the are motorized but don't necessarily pollute or cause congestion or injure people in the way that cars often did.

00:25:27:00 - 00:25:43:00
Kate Schapira: Does that make sense? Does anybody have questions about what I'm asking you to envision together? And you may want to take some notes while you talk, because I am going to ask a few people if they feel like sharing toward the end who's got questions.

00:25:43:02 - 00:25:54:10
Kate Schapira: In the description of the prompt is in the chat questions.

00:25:54:13 - 00:26:05:23
Kate Schapira: All right. So I think we're going to take about ten minutes to scheme on this. And then we will be back. Dream big.

00:26:05:26 - 00:26:09:28
Victoria Muharsky: He is it okay if I make you host so you can do the breakout rooms.

00:26:10:04 - 00:26:13:04
Kate Schapira: Of course. Just absolutely.

00:26:13:06 - 00:26:16:22
Victoria Muharsky: So make host.

00:26:16:24 - 00:26:29:12
Victoria Muharsky: And let me know if that works. If not, we might have to stay together as a whole group, which I know isn't exactly what we want to do, but I'm not seeing the button. Sorry for the technical difficulties, everyone.

00:26:29:14 - 00:26:33:21
Kate Schapira: There's not a there's not a million of us.

00:26:33:24 - 00:26:37:04
Kate Schapira: Okay? We can do it together. I also am not seeing the button.

00:26:37:08 - 00:26:40:13
Victoria Muharsky: Okay. Is that okay if we stay together?

00:26:40:15 - 00:26:41:03
Kate Schapira: Yeah.

00:26:41:04 - 00:26:43:03
Victoria Muharsky: Okay. Perfect.

00:26:43:05 - 00:27:01:20
Kate Schapira: All right, so because there aren't a million of us, I think we can go ahead and do this out loud and maybe hear each other's voices a little bit. A day in the livable city. What are we doing? What happens?

00:27:01:23 - 00:27:02:10
Kate Schapira: Personally.

00:27:02:10 - 00:27:22:04
Samantha Carlin: I would like there to be, like, a self-sustaining food source. So all of the food comes locally from our city. That might not work for cities as much. Maybe small towns. I'm in a small town, and I would like to see more food independence.

00:27:22:07 - 00:27:43:26
Dara Benno: To build off of that. You know, the little mini library systems. I don't know if you all have them where you are. Okay. I was in the countryside yesterday and there are the farm stands on the side of the road that you kind of you leave the money and you take what you need. And I was just thinking how nice it would be to have little farm stands around the city that are also mapped out.

00:27:43:29 - 00:27:49:00
Dara Benno: Why don't we have those?

00:27:49:02 - 00:27:54:04
Kate Schapira: Good more?

00:27:54:07 - 00:28:31:05
Sara Gutterman: To me, livable cities also include climate responsive design elements. So they have living walls, you know, where buildings are covered either with vegetation or they have, you know, reflective roofs and materials to reduce heat gain. They have shade corridors that protect inhabitants from extreme temperatures, particularly, you know, the heat right now, they're designed with orientation in mind so that prevailing breezes can kind of flow through spaces again, just to to keep people cool.

00:28:31:09 - 00:28:57:24
Sara Gutterman: Because as we all know, the heat island effect is really making cities unbearable. So a lot of climate responsive design elements that are not incorporated into the design of cities right now in order again, to kind of reflect that heat gain. But that also really ties into and I love the idea of food production, because I think it's really important that people know that food doesn't come from the grocery store.

00:28:57:25 - 00:29:19:00
Sara Gutterman: Right. And I really believe that when people are involved in community gardens or growing, even if it's just herbs in pots on windowsills, they get a closer connection to what they're eating. And as we all know, we already eat. So I think that's a really important part of this equation.

00:29:19:02 - 00:30:13:21
Kate Schapira: And then, you know, for people who are, you know, kind of for whom the opposite is true, for people who do grow their own or do farm work. Also, I think like more control, better working conditions, right? More worker owned food businesses, more cooperatives, better labor laws and less exploitation. So I think if people are growing food, they also are then gaining an understanding of what is involved in growing food, which then you can then make the leap to, oh, wait a minute, the people who grow food should be able to do so safely and in healthy conditions.

00:30:13:23 - 00:30:24:05
Victoria Muharsky: For me, I would want a walkable city or a walkable neighborhood just because I really miss socializing with people. So I would want a stronger community.

00:30:24:07 - 00:30:30:25
Kate Schapira: So people can kind of encounter each other in like a low key, incidental, random way.

00:30:30:27 - 00:30:37:01
Victoria Muharsky: Yeah, exactly that way. It's low pressure, but then you get it. Interact with more folks throughout your day.

00:30:37:03 - 00:31:08:26
DH: I second Victoria's suggestion, some sort of spatial arrangement that draws people together on a daily basis, where you encounter each other and build that sense of community. Thinking of Jane Jacobs work in lower Manhattan, that kind of how to replicate that, but is so much isolation even in a community, even in a community that has very close townhouses where I am, everybody stays except the next door neighbor.

00:31:08:26 - 00:31:12:18
DH: That's about it there, isn't there? Yeah.

00:31:12:20 - 00:31:38:07
Kate Schapira: Something so real, isn't it? And it is. It is design through habit. And so let's let's dig into that one a little bit just for funsies. What would or what do. Because perhaps you have this what brings you out of your home into the world to convene with other people? What would you do this for? This thing?

00:31:38:09 - 00:31:57:07
Kate Schapira: This thing that we're hearing about? It sounds so nice, right? What would actually like what does get you to do it? Or if you don't do it at the moment, what would get you to do it? What would bring you out into the possibility of connecting with other people in this gathering way? Go ahead. Ahead.

00:31:57:09 - 00:32:20:08
DH: I'm just filling out in the walkable city, the cleaning at the eco friendly cleaning store. Where to get the bread. There would be this constant kind of interaction. The challenge is how to do that in the suburbs and sort of commute. Yeah, for for who can't simply walk to yeah, that's the challenge.

00:32:20:11 - 00:32:43:22
Kate Schapira: How are we going to do it in the suburbs? Imagine we're imagining. So we're imagining a kind of residential development situation. Right? I've been in those, they are not what I'm used to, but I've been in them. And in one of them that I was in, in the fall, I was taking a walk, which it certainly was not designed for.

00:32:43:22 - 00:32:51:22
Kate Schapira: And there was a grandma and a granddaughter selling persimmons out of their garage.

00:32:51:24 - 00:33:21:08
Kate Schapira: And I was like, oh, you could just do that. A lot of the structural solutions that people were recommending above changing, zoning, building new big things, we need that. And to get it, we need to come together and lean on the people who make these decisions. Right? Sometimes that's city councils or town councils. Sometimes it's planning board through zoning boards, sometimes it's the Department of Public Works.

00:33:21:08 - 00:33:47:11
Kate Schapira: Collective pressure on those people is so useful, so important. And also sometimes you can maybe just do something yourself. Sometimes you really can put out a little food box. Right? Actually, Providence has that, I've seen that. I've seen one with books next to one with like canned goods. And it's great.

00:33:47:13 - 00:34:16:00
Kate Schapira: You could you could just have persimmons out of your garage. I'm also seeing Halloween brings us out. We have a neighborhood group that supports children's here. I love that. So holidays can be a thing, that bring people out. Could you start a little holiday? Could you have a little parade for something? Something historical? Something something social? Something for rent control?

00:34:16:03 - 00:34:41:23
Kate Schapira: Just for example, you know, just throwing just throwing something out there, thinking about, you know, so having a little event can kind of bring, bring, bring stuff out. And that can be a great way to get people out into a space. So maybe in our livable town, our livable housing development, maybe you give one person grows fruit tree seedlings.

00:34:42:01 - 00:35:17:19
Kate Schapira: Right. And then maybe there's a little fruit tour. I'm making this up. But that would be so cute, right? That would be so nice. The other thing that I think is worth maybe considering is because of the way that economic segregation and regular, regular old racial segregation tend to work in this country. People often are locked into communities of people who have the same income as them.

00:35:17:21 - 00:35:55:22
Kate Schapira: And that can mean sometimes we've got a lot of resources and we don't totally know what to do with them. And sometimes it means we don't have enough resources, and we're having trouble putting the things that we want to see into practice. So that's another thing that I would, I think I would want to see in the livable city is a rent control two observing, as somebody mentioned above, and d paths that take everybody through everybody else's zone, which means reduced policing, honestly.

00:35:55:25 - 00:36:10:11
Kate Schapira: Thank you so much for being here. A person who just left, I can't hear me. Anything else? What else? We got three more minutes real quick. What else are we looking at here?

00:36:10:14 - 00:36:30:24
Fernanda Romo: I imagine people, everyone involved in the arts, whatever they might select, but have time to, to harness that, because I believe we are all creative in some way. And also something that I remember from a group that I attended in not too long ago, talking about dreams and having a dream group in every corner that people could share their dreams.

00:36:30:24 - 00:36:42:07
Fernanda Romo: I think that will be a great way of staying connected with the times. And, you know, I think we need to invite that aspect of life to like, so that will be exciting.

00:36:42:09 - 00:37:29:15
Kate Schapira: I love that there is a there is a writer and psychologist named Martha Crawford. I'll try to find her employer in the chat who was gathering people's climate dreams. She was asking people to share those with her online. And absolutely making something together is a wonderful way to. That's also a way to bring people together. It's a way to kind of keep our creativity lively and honed, right, so that we can keep kind of having these kinds of conversations that we're having right now, imagining things, creating something that makes people feel, that makes people think, classes starting in elementary school on how to grow and make food.

00:37:29:17 - 00:38:00:05
Kate Schapira: Yeah, education is a huge part of this. Right. And I would even add to that, Mary, multigenerational education. Right. So having people from all generations join students, young students, in order to do this, whether that's somebody who has been growing tomatoes in buckets in their backyard for 20 years, or somebody who used to live on and work on a farm ages ago and has moved to the city in their later age.

00:38:00:08 - 00:38:27:02
Kate Schapira: All of these are opportunities for people to learn both about food and each other. I love this, another thing that I'm thinking about. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Thinking about the walkable city. I saw somebody online say, if you can walk around your city, but the person who sells you read or pause your coffee can't afford to live there, too.

00:38:27:03 - 00:38:47:18
Kate Schapira: You live in a theme park. So thinking also about how to create a range of housing options that are available to people of any income, we're just making housing free. This is just something that I think about a lot how housing should be free. I really, really do. I think it should be free. We could talk about that another time.

00:38:47:21 - 00:39:12:14
Kate Schapira: But it's it's really it's really it's not something that I have the ability to make happen at the moment, but it really is just something that I think. So how are people feeling now if you're willing to say and again, because it's your feeling and you don't know it and you don't know us, you don't have to. You don't have to say, but just check in with how you're feeling now as we've been having this conversation, what's your what's your body doing?

00:39:12:14 - 00:39:21:07
Kate Schapira: What's your heart doing? And is there a shift from where you were at before?

00:39:21:09 - 00:39:26:27
Kate Schapira: Anything change? Or are you kind of where you were at before?

00:39:26:29 - 00:39:48:19
Fernanda Romo: For me, I just want to ensure that I feel exposed just to speaking. But this opens it's like an opening for me. It's like I want to continue doing this more. It's like getting hungry from like realizing I'm hungry of this type of connection or conversation. But it's hard to get out there and expose yourself. But I want to do it more.

00:39:48:21 - 00:39:51:06
Fernanda Romo: This.

00:39:51:08 - 00:40:14:22
Kate Schapira: I'm so grateful to you for saying that, and also for doing it. For actually taking that step to put yourself out. It is you know, this is when we're talking about feelings. We're talking about stuff that we're often taught to not share. When we're talking about what we want, we're often talking about stuff that people have told us is not possible or that we should not try for.

00:40:14:24 - 00:40:50:23
Kate Schapira: And so seeing what Kim saying, making space to dream and act, that is so huge. I'm so glad you said that. And I want you to think a little bit, what are the places where you're already having some of these conversations in your life, in your workplace, among the people that you know, again, I was saying before, like, oh, like, you know, you can sometimes we can sometimes like curb ourselves and not reveal ourselves because we're afraid of how the people in our community are going to respond.

00:40:50:24 - 00:41:20:09
Kate Schapira: We're afraid they're going to think it's stupid. We're afraid they're going to think it's crazy. We're we're afraid they're going to think we're crazy or babies or unrealistic or two blah, blah, blah. Fill in the negative word there and sometimes say, well, but sometimes they surprise us. And so how might you open yourself up to that surprise, that possibility with the people that you live with, work with stand in line of the post office with?

00:41:20:11 - 00:41:55:18
Kate Schapira: That's one. That's one thing that I would encourage you to imagine. And again, you can say that out loud if you wish, but you don't have to. But think about it. Where are the spaces to dream and act on these ideas? And another thing that you can think about, and that my book also outlines some some possibilities for working on, but I'll just mention it here is how might you increase the time and energy and power of people to act on these ideas?

00:41:55:20 - 00:42:16:22
Kate Schapira: One way I'm seeing Mary put this in the chat. Religious organizations? Absolutely. If you are a member of a faith community and you don't know for a fact that they'd be hostile to this, also, you don't have to put it in terms of climate change, just like putting that out there. You could just say like, hey, I think this is going to increase, like community cohesion.

00:42:16:22 - 00:42:43:28
Kate Schapira: I think it's going to increase people's will being overall, like I said, anything that helps people live. Well, whether climate change but also weather injustice, you're doing your community a favor by getting that started. You don't even have to put it in terms of climate impact. You can just know that, another thing I'm thinking of,

00:42:44:00 - 00:43:02:08
Kate Schapira: Oh, you checked you just checked in with people at the post office. That's beautiful. I love that for you. Those little everyday caring moments are so huge, and it can make the difference between, like, a day when you feel like you're going to have to lie down in the road, and a day when you feel like you might be able to keep going.

00:43:02:16 - 00:43:22:15
Dara Benno: It was amazing. Literally everyone in the post office was having this big conversation about this man who was having housing struggles, but then like, overcame them and everyone was congratulating him and we were all just talking about hope. It was like the most amazing experience. It's like like, my God, this is the best post office ever.

00:43:22:17 - 00:43:33:15
Kate Schapira: So beautiful. And like, this is what can happen. I think when you do what Fernando was talking about and like open, open up the possibility a little bit.

00:43:33:17 - 00:43:56:16
Kate Schapira: And sometimes you get shot down. And that also is something that we can learn to weather, because when that happens, you learn that it isn't going to kill you. You are not going to wither into dust and blow away. If you open up and somebody is not receptive, you are going to survive that you have already. I know because all of you are grown people.

00:43:56:16 - 00:44:17:04
Kate Schapira: I know that you've already survived humiliations. I know that you've already survived things not working out. You know how to do that. Opening that box a little bit about something that you care about, to see if somebody else cares about it to, worst case, you get a little more practice in doing it. Even if they're not receptive.

00:44:17:05 - 00:44:42:26
Kate Schapira: Best case, it becomes this incredible gift that you can share together. Last thing I think I'll say in terms of like how what we might take from this conversation and how we might kind of like capacity and strengthen one another to meet this crisis. Is you can also think about how you might how do I say this?

00:44:42:26 - 00:45:05:04
Kate Schapira: Sometimes I call it back of house work, which is like a shorthand that I've developed, and it's actually not very helpful. But like the example that I'll give is, let's say that there is a public hearing for, for changing zoning in the town where you live. There's some sort of public hearing. The planning board is said, okay, you can come and talk for three minutes before we take your microphone away.

00:45:05:06 - 00:45:31:14
Kate Schapira: And it is it's on a Tuesday night and you're like, man, I hate public speaking. I cannot stand it. If I go up there, I'm going to throw up. And so maybe you say to your friend who you've been having these little climate conversations with, hey, listen, you know, there's this public hearing on Tuesday night. I don't think I can stand to be there.

00:45:31:21 - 00:46:16:00
Kate Schapira: Here's what I would say if I could go. Do you want to can you go? Do you want to drop the kids off and I'll put on a movie. I'll get pizza. You go talk at the meeting, bring the kids over in their pajamas. Something like that is an example of kind of finding out, like how the different capacities that we have within ourselves and between our neighbors and in our friendships and relationships can then help us to create the kind of power that can shape what a town does, what a planning department does, what a city council does, it doesn't have to all be.

00:46:16:01 - 00:46:33:25
Kate Schapira: I know a lot of people are like, well, if I can't march in the street, what can I do? Or if nobody cares when I march in the street, what can I do? And the answer is, you can do a lot, but you got to expand your vision of what's possible. Can you give someone a ride? Can you pick up someone's prescription?

00:46:33:26 - 00:46:55:25
Kate Schapira: Can you maybe do a little bit of research on zoning laws? If you're the kind of person who's very good at, like, sinking into an internet rabbit hole and like, picking up like, oh, yeah, like, here's the finer points. Here's the here's the little like gotchas, and here's the little possibilities, and write that up into a beautiful little document that people can then use for testimony.

00:46:55:28 - 00:47:20:21
Kate Schapira: Can you get people together to write postcards to voters who for some reason are undecided? My mom's doing that, I think this week, she signed up with an organization that does it. And I think she's also getting the other with a couple of friends to do it, which is cute to me. So thinking about how.

00:47:20:22 - 00:47:24:05
Kate Schapira: Go ahead, Billy, go ahead.

00:47:24:08 - 00:47:55:08
Billy Giblin: Oh, I'm actually in town government where I live. And fortunately, there's hybrid options too. So if you're shy to speak in person, usually you can be online and you don't even have to turn on your camera if you don't want to. And, also just emailing those those boards, you know, the planning commission boards is going and zoning boards, trustee, you know, boards of trustees, city councils, county county commissioners.

00:47:55:08 - 00:48:23:07
Billy Giblin: And we live in a small town with a pretty good local paper, too. So letters to the editor are welcome. And, you know, some people write some pretty it's not provoking stuff. So those are just other ways to speak out. And I think like when your original question maybe just taking this little tangent, but the original question talked about a place that's, you know, livable and morale, the words.

00:48:23:07 - 00:48:50:17
Billy Giblin: But, you know, I live at eight over 8000ft in Colorado in the mountain town. And, you know, I think a big I know, a big stressor is wildfire. And to a degree, you know, I think things can be done to mitigate and reduce our vulnerability and, you know, hopefully harden homes and clear out vegetation around homes. And to a degree also, you know, they've been burning there for thousands of years.

00:48:50:17 - 00:49:16:02
Billy Giblin: So it's like even if even if things were to get better, wildfire still remains an issue. I mean, trees have have evolved out there because of wildfire. And so just kind of embracing a relationship with it at the same time. I mean, knowing right now it's gotten worse for sure, and potentially we'll just get worse, but also embracing a relationship with it.

00:49:16:02 - 00:49:37:04
Billy Giblin: So there's less anxiety around and more action about, like, what can we do now? Hardening homes is really expensive, and we're challenged in our community and in my household for that matter, with affording being able to do what we need to do with the old mining cabins we bought and live in now. And you know, that are all built a very flammable wood.

00:49:37:05 - 00:49:46:01
Billy Giblin: And so, you know, there are some things we can do and some things that remain a challenge. So.

00:49:46:04 - 00:50:11:22
Kate Schapira: Thank you, Billy. And I think there is a longer conversation to be had about when is it time to also let go of the place where you live? That's something that people in Rhode Island are definitely contending with now, and it is very heavy and hard to even it's hard to even think about. It's hard to even talk about for a lot of people.

00:50:11:24 - 00:50:12:09
Kate Schapira: But.

00:50:12:10 - 00:50:38:13
Billy Giblin: That's that's true. But I think there's also, I mean, yeah, and I know that, I mean, some places will be underwater on the coastline or whatever, unlivable. But there's also places, you know, there's also embrace, you know, there's also not letting go of the place, but it's more of a embracing the realities of living in a place, you know, I mean, it doesn't see above.

00:50:38:14 - 00:50:46:05
Billy Giblin: Colorado is not going to go underwater. So it's it's still there, you know. Will it burn? Probably. But but, you know, it will also grow back.

00:50:46:05 - 00:50:49:10
Kate Schapira: So I see Sarah with a hand up over it says.

00:50:49:11 - 00:51:34:00
Sara Gutterman: Yeah, this is such an important and timely part of this discussion. And it's something that I know I think about a lot. And our team talks about a lot. And, you know, professionals in the green building space. And Billy, I know you're engaged in these conversations too, as I know you to be a green building professional. You know, I feel like this conversation of, you know, do we rebuild after disaster or do we abandon places that we love our homes and our neighborhoods and our communities because they are, you know, becoming climate change?

00:51:34:03 - 00:51:56:00
Sara Gutterman: I'm going to use the word deserts. But, you know, they just they really can't be salvaged. And I think there's a lot of coastal communities that are struggling with that. Kate, as you said, and I think those are the ones right now that probably have the biggest risk of permanent climate change. Because Billy, as you said, and I live at 9000ft in the Colorado Rockies in southwestern Colorado near Telluride.

00:51:56:00 - 00:52:16:04
Sara Gutterman: And, you know, we will you know, wildfire is the thing, right? It's not if it's when, unfortunately. And so every time we have a wet winter and a wet spring, we're so happy because it mitigates wildfire. But, you know, I see these, these people on the news talking about how they're going to rebuild after superstorm or a tornado.

00:52:16:04 - 00:52:38:25
Sara Gutterman: And like, I love their perseverance and I love their passion. But, you know, how much heartbreak do communities really like? How much can they take? Right. Like I see, for example, go back to the rising sea levels because that's that's a permanent thing, right? Miami gone. A lot of coastal cities across the globe just gone. Right. They're going to be gone soon.

00:52:38:27 - 00:53:10:23
Sara Gutterman: A lot of coastal communities, you know, it's like, yes, there's an argument to build with structural insulated panels and to raise buildings, you know, x amount of feet up off the, the, the landscape in order to manage flood water better. But at the end of the day, you know, it's just it's such a hard decision about, you know, do you do what, like the government's doing in new Jersey, where they're purchasing coastal property from homeowners because they want to retire that property?

00:53:10:23 - 00:53:36:27
Sara Gutterman: Basically, within having those communities have to go through the super storms and these title surges where their homes get ruined, you know, one, two, three, five times, you know, how many times do to do you have to like, can you hear communities say, okay, we're building for the fourth time after major flooding or a hurricane? Like, how many times can a heart bear that kind of loss and disaster?

00:53:36:27 - 00:54:01:08
Sara Gutterman: And so I think we're getting to a place that is going to be, I think, I think where communities are going to deal with like the hardest decisions that are ever going to have to make about leaving the, the, the places where, you know, maybe their families have been for generations, but it is just not realistic to live in those areas anymore.

00:54:01:13 - 00:54:15:12
Sara Gutterman: And so I think that as whether we're building professionals or whether we're mental health professionals, you know, those are the types of just heartbreaking conversations we need to prepare ourselves for.

00:54:15:15 - 00:54:50:08
Kate Schapira: Because we went to that place, which is a real place that we need to be prepared to go, even if it's not us. You know, what Sarah's describing could be true for somebody on this call. You know, what Sarah described could be like your town, your house, your street. And if it's not yours, it's somebodies, so being able to undergo that sadness and still survive is also something that we can practice.

00:54:50:10 - 00:55:11:05
Kate Schapira: We don't want to have to practice it. It sucks, but it's something that we can practice being in together. And I'm going to ask us before we part to do a quick little exercise also from the book that I also use a lot with the group that I work with, which is facing sea level rise, and what Sarah's describing, which is called managed retreat.

00:55:11:07 - 00:55:38:03
Kate Schapira: I'm going to ask you to think about that climate impact that you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation. Think about that thing, how you feel about it. Also, just notice the places where your body is touching something. So your chair, your couch, your bed, the floor, notice those places, feel yourself in space and whatever you feel in response to that climate impact, you can close your on.

00:55:38:03 - 00:55:58:20
Kate Schapira: Focus your eyes if you'd want me. Don't have to. Whatever you feel in response to that climate impact, I want you to let that feeling rise up and then subside, like the sound of a car passing you on the road. That sadness, that anger, that grief, that frustration, that dismay, or even the openness that's okay to it doesn't have to be a negative form.

00:55:58:21 - 00:56:02:04
Kate Schapira: Let it rise up.

00:56:02:07 - 00:56:06:11
Kate Schapira: And let it pass.

00:56:06:14 - 00:56:11:02
Kate Schapira: Try it one more time. Let it rise up.

00:56:11:04 - 00:56:31:17
Kate Schapira: Let it pass. And one thing I like about this exercise is, again, it doesn't ask you to try to change the feeling. It doesn't try to get you to make it go away. It makes room for it in your life. It acknowledges that our emotions are things that happen and then also stop happening. Don't always happen in the same way.

00:56:31:21 - 00:56:50:09
Kate Schapira: You can do it wherever and whenever you are. You can do it and nobody can tell you're doing it, so you can do it in a meeting. I do it in meetings a lot. It is something that can be yours and you can do it all the time. It's also something that is relatively easy to share with other people.

00:56:50:09 - 00:57:09:01
Kate Schapira: So I often open meetings with that exercise or close them like we're doing with this one, because it is quick, it is easy, it is not enough to explain, and it is not to have to do. And it is a reminder that what we feel is ours and we get to decide how we want to act on it.

00:57:09:03 - 00:57:22:01
Kate Schapira: So with our last few minutes, if folks have questions, I would love to hear them or points they want to raise. Love to hear those as well.

00:57:22:03 - 00:57:45:05
Sara Gutterman: I don't have a question, but I just want to say thank you so much. I've got a run into another meeting, but this has been uplifting and supportive and fun. And so I thank you. Thanks everybody, for for showing up and being here and offering your your thoughts and insights. And I'm going to hop off. But Kate and Victoria, please stay on if there are questions.

00:57:45:05 - 00:58:12:04
Sara Gutterman: But again, Kate just really appreciate you and your work. And thanks to everybody. And I see a question on there. We will make the recording available. And you know, check in with us. We'll hopefully be doing more work with Kate and with any of you who are interested in continuing to talk about this topic, because it's really important to us, and we know it's also important to Green Builder Media's audience.

00:58:12:06 - 00:58:15:27
Kate Schapira: Thank you so much, Sarah. I'm so grateful for the chance to be with you.

00:58:15:28 - 00:58:19:13
Sara Gutterman: Thank you.

00:58:19:16 - 00:58:28:14
Kate Schapira: Other questions that folks find themselves with.

00:58:28:17 - 00:58:33:16
Kate Schapira: Glad that are useful. Thank you so much. Thanks for trying them.

00:58:33:19 - 00:58:38:18
DH: I'm interested in applying them with students in class because that's.

00:58:38:24 - 00:58:49:05
Kate Schapira: They work really well in class. I have a teaching background also. And they, they, they were great.

00:58:49:08 - 00:59:06:11
Kate Schapira: Anything that didn't get addressed. But that's on people's minds.

00:59:06:13 - 00:59:22:04
Fernanda Romo: Just want to say thank you I like this. I'm thinking of this imaginal space where we can dream together. I would love to practice this more or find a way, a psychotherapist, that I can do that in any way because I think it's very important. Thank you. Okay.

00:59:22:07 - 00:59:45:08
Kate Schapira: Yeah, I'm putting my contact email contact info in the chat. Anybody wants to get in touch to think or talk about working together, I will also just say that I'm creating a couple of workshops that anybody can do for free, if they want to do them in cells that are kind of in addition to what's in the book, which you can also do, you can do whatever in the book.

00:59:45:08 - 01:00:06:16
Kate Schapira: Once you buy the book, it's yours forever. But also I can come and help you facilitate them if you want, and that facilitation will be free for a group that's majority people of color and a small fee for anybody else. And that's for me to do it. But if you want to give yourself. So please get in touch about that.

01:00:06:19 - 01:00:26:21
Kate Schapira: Any other last minute questions, thoughts, things you want to, things you want to leave other people with also doesn't have to be a question for me.

01:00:26:24 - 01:00:46:27
Kate Schapira: Mainly seeing quietness. So I'm going to thank you all once more. Hope you'll stay in touch. Maybe we can do something through Greenfield and Media together. And and I wish you strength and luck and courage in all of your next things. Thank you so much.

01:00:46:29 - 01:00:49:11
Samantha Carlin: Thank you. Kate, this was great.