In the second Housing 2.0 session, Sam Rashkin treats comfort as a system, linking enclosure control layers, design for natural heating, cooling and daylight, and low-load HVAC, with sizing examples showing how orientation and duct location alone can swing a load calculation by three tons. LG's Voya Milasinovic covers installation quality and cold-weather heat pump performance.
00:00:03:03 - 00:00:26:06
Mike Collignon: All right. Welcome back everyone. If you're joining us for the first time, then we're glad you found us. And for those of you who were here last week, you might recall that as we were wrapping up, I said, we'll be discussing comfort and it will fit with the observation of the day. Well, we are discussing comfort in the observation of the day is that it's food day.
00:00:26:08 - 00:00:56:01
Mike Collignon: Get it? Comfort food? Yeah. No. Dang it. All right, well, puns aside, we're going to be discussing a couple different types of comfort, specifically natural comfort and comfort provided by mechanical ventilation. We're also going to be joined by Voya, who used to be up there, Mila Chinook of LG Air Conditioning Technologies, for a presentation, discussion and Q&A on quality control challenges and cold weather performance.
00:00:56:03 - 00:01:23:17
Mike Collignon: Now you know who's comfortable talking about housing Sam Raskin. That's because he is the former chief architect that does Building Technologies office, but he is now focused on creating and teaching the content for the housing 2.0 program. That content is based largely on Sam's book housing 2.0 A Disruption Survival Guide. Now, the full program was established to help empower you, our building professionals, to design and construct higher performance, healthier and more sustainable homes and a fraction of the cost stands going to lead today's seminar.
00:01:23:19 - 00:01:49:06
Mike Collignon: But he's also going to address your questions at the end. Before we get started, though, we have some sponsors that we're very comfortable talking about. The first is Schneider Electric, who is driving the digital transformation of modern homes with smart and sustainable energy solutions for ultimate comfort and energy efficiency. Their connected home ecosystem of smart energy management solutions provides digital control of energy use throughout a home from the grid via their smart electrical panel to their connected wiring devices.
00:01:49:07 - 00:02:13:22
Mike Collignon: Next, we have solar. They are a leading PV module manufacturer and energy storage system integrator. The company has deployed more than 100GW of their Eagle modules in 160 countries globally, including more than 17GW right here in the United States. Eagle storage brings together the best energy storage technology for turnkey hardware and energy storage services. Now we also have Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions.
00:02:13:22 - 00:02:54:19
Mike Collignon: They're helping builders across the country differentiate themselves with powerful, code compliant and cost effective indoor air quality solutions that provide a safer environment for home buyers. And finally, our newest sponsor of which boy is a part of is LG VAC and Air Conditioning Technologies is a leading proponent of the electrification movement. LG is proud to pave the way with arguably the broadest portfolio of home electrification products, from air to air and air to water heat pumps for Mac water heaters, clothes dryers and washer dryer combos all the way to advanced energy storage systems, EV chargers, and super efficient appliances, including the industry's first Energy Star certified induction Cooktop.
00:02:54:21 - 00:03:13:19
Mike Collignon: LG's innovation and technology will help us promote decarbonization and collectively create a better life for all. And during the course of today's presentation, you can submit questions for Sam or simply use the questions box inside the Go to Webinar Control panel. I'm going to review those questions and I'll pose those to Sam or Voya after they are done.
00:03:13:21 - 00:03:19:27
Mike Collignon: All right I'm going to ask everyone else to get comfortable. Yeah, well Sam proceeds.
00:03:20:00 - 00:03:43:25
Sam Rashkin: Hey thank you Mike. And like Mike, I could not be more grateful for our sponsors Panasonic, Schneider Electric, Genco Solar and LG Air Conditioning Technologies. This is a unique program about how to deliver better homes for lower cost. And this unique set of sponsors recognize how important it is for high performance professionals to be leaders in the industry.
00:03:43:25 - 00:04:10:27
Sam Rashkin: And you can't if you don't are also addressed. He total user experience for new housing. So we're so excited to have them. And today's topic is a really special one. We're going to talk about comfort today and comfort matters. We're going to tie together a lot of loose ends that we cover across the housing 2.0 curriculum. And kind of look at comfort really is much more than just designing a heating cooling system.
00:04:10:27 - 00:04:34:19
Sam Rashkin: It really is a larger comfort as a system approach that we want to cover today. So when we say comfort as a system, the three key parts that we think about or should be thinking about is first you start with the enclosure thermal control, airflow control, voice control. When you get that right versus get it wrong, everything flips.
00:04:34:19 - 00:05:00:06
Sam Rashkin: It's a complete change in terms of what the requirements of comfort system are and the brute force you need to manage the comfort. Next part that's often this is designed how significant how we design our homes is to the comfort we get and the quality of the comfort we get. So we're going to talk about natural heating, natural cooling, natural light, natural fresh air.
00:05:00:10 - 00:05:23:04
Sam Rashkin: Again, like I said, we're going to tie a lot of loose ends that we cover across the curriculum for housing 2.0 here today. And the third part, that kind of closes a deal. The absolute critical part, once you get the first two right, is heating cooling solutions. And with the heating, ventilation, air conditioning, we have to really figure out what to do with low load systems.
00:05:23:04 - 00:05:58:04
Sam Rashkin: That heater four have not been as critical when enclosures one as good. We have to think about quality installation. There's tremendous data about the marketplace and how the preponderance of faults in installations is pretty scary. Talk about that later. And also in any locations where you get not just the hot image southeast, any places that have extended unit weather conditions across summer, 3 or 4 months, we have to think about.
00:05:58:07 - 00:06:19:05
Sam Rashkin: It also has to do with the fact we have very low load homes, very good enclosures, we have longer swing seasons, we have shorter cycles. We have to figure out what to do when we don't get as much accidental gamification from the heating cooling system to help manage the city. So this is a comfort as a system strategy.
00:06:19:06 - 00:06:46:22
Sam Rashkin: We'll get to it with these topics enclosure and comfort, design and comfort, HVAC and comfort, and then optimizing comfort recommendations. And it's great that we have here today. He and I were in Dallas yesterday during an in-person workshop, and he brings so much insight. We're going to have him really talk about bringing all this together and really innovation on these advanced heating cooling technologies that can kind of close the deal.
00:06:46:22 - 00:07:07:06
Sam Rashkin: And then we'll go into discussion and address your questions like we usually do with each seminar. So let's jump right in to the first topic enclosure and comfort. This is where the rubber meets the road. You know what you do in the front end and the choices you make. An enclosure you provide really sets the stage for comfort.
00:07:07:07 - 00:07:34:28
Sam Rashkin: In many cases, things can be so rough it makes it really challenging, sometimes almost impossible for the heating cooling system to ensure full comfort year round. So here's what we are coming from now. Over the last stretch of time, we've been doing Energy Star and had a privilege to work on Zero Energy as well. We've moved from low performance enclosures and here was the challenge with low performance enclosures.
00:07:34:28 - 00:07:59:25
Sam Rashkin: First of all, we would often put the heating cooling system in an unconditional attic, which is a nightmare for comfort. Now, addicts can get up to 120 170 degrees, depending where you are and how hot your client your summer conditions are. That is a nightmare setting for heating cooling system, the air handler, the equipment itself, and the ductwork.
00:07:59:27 - 00:08:30:14
Sam Rashkin: 45% losses are common. We'll talk about that. And it just is just such a handicap. If this is how the enclosure set up, so that the only place left for the heating cooling system induction equipment is in the unconditioned attic. So that's number one. Number two we had with low performance enclosures all these incomplete thermal barrier conditions. So we might have in this case an attic hatch either with a flimsy piece of fiberglass.
00:08:30:17 - 00:08:53:23
Sam Rashkin: Eventually, after a cube access, events up to the attic would become ineffective if it was effective in the first place. We have the ducks themselves that go into the attic. Each one of them is a thermal hall and shafts and all sorts of other openings where you're not insulated. We have a Swiss cheese virtually. A thermal barrier breaks where there's no air conditioning.
00:08:53:23 - 00:09:13:03
Sam Rashkin: And think about it, if it's 140 in the attic, the air in these ducts, when the system is not running and cycling off quickly gets over 100 degrees, and it wants to go from more to less and drift into the house where it's 70 degrees. So you have almost like a cycling effect of the attic heating air that can get in the house until the system is operating.
00:09:13:03 - 00:09:50:15
Sam Rashkin: The fans push conditioner and overcome these losses. So it's just a nightmare of a strategy. To build this way to optimize comfort just doesn't work. The next issue we have, we discussed this before during the performance module is with conventional construction insulation on the flat, in the ceiling, on vented attic. We have no topside air barrier. So the performance of the insulation without a topside air barrier is so much less so when you have a six sided assembly that we learn every day, we take building science training.
00:09:50:19 - 00:10:17:29
Sam Rashkin: We have virtually half the air barrier missing with traditional construction. So under any kind of if there's even a mild wind in the attic pressurize, there's constant natural driving forces for the air in the attic that's pressurized to move through the fibrous insulation, which is not an air barrier, and make the ceiling hotter, and then also work fine holes create a thermal connection.
00:10:17:29 - 00:10:48:18
Sam Rashkin: And again, comfort with vented attics is a huge hit. So we have to recognize that the next thing after recognizes we have an incomplete interior barrier. Again, all of the Swiss cheese of openings for duct boots and for access panels, and for recessed lighting and fans, bathroom fans, kitchen fans. The just amazing number of penetrations that avoid a complete interior air barrier.
00:10:48:21 - 00:11:17:19
Sam Rashkin: And then we have in homes that aren't built to the latest codes in these high performance programs like Zero Energy, Ready Home and Energy Star. We have much less insulation R value, and we have less oversight and inspections and testing to make it a complete make sure it's a quality installed thermal barrier. And then we have sub optimized windows and windows are used difference especially the colder and colder we get.
00:11:17:21 - 00:11:46:12
Sam Rashkin: And finally we have these leaky assemblies in low performance enclosures a normal five. 750 home that we were starting with and worse back then would be equivalent to like a ten inch opening in a wall just with air can just blow in and out in the winter and air escape that's warm in the summer. Hot air come in and it's virtually a ten inch hole in a, you know, a five, seven, 850 home.
00:11:46:12 - 00:12:21:07
Sam Rashkin: And this is the setting, we say to the HVAC installer and trades, give me comfort. It's a huge hit and we don't optimize enclosure. So the reason last week we spend so much time on optimizing enclosure is we fix all this. So with an optimized enclosure, a high performance enclosure this is what I recommended last week. This kind of solution we want to first have the HVAC system in the condition space.
00:12:21:07 - 00:12:51:23
Sam Rashkin: And notice that last week we spent a lot of time highly recommending transitioning to a vented attic. And what's amazing also we'll talk about with a high performance enclosure is you have hardly any duck runs and much, much smaller equipment. We'll talk about the sizing later as well, but we have a smaller system that's so much lower cost, much lower, much less expensive duct system at much lower cost, much better airflow, much better comfort.
00:12:51:26 - 00:13:14:26
Sam Rashkin: Incredible. What happens once we make a better enclosure? So what is that better enclosure? Well, first we have a complete thermal barrier. It's a complete different sort of showing you here. And the solutions we address in the Performance Matters module last week that create this incredibly superior thermal protection. I encourage all of you who haven't seen last week's module.
00:13:14:27 - 00:13:49:12
Sam Rashkin: You can go view the recording and see how we get here. But this is night and day in terms of creating almost like a cooler versus a just a, like a big open basket where he can come in and out. So complete thermal barrier. Then we have a complete exterior barrier and get rid of all that Swiss cheese and things going through and, and openings and trying to manage it and all those penetrations we you left to the only penetrations are usually the plumbing stack, 1 or 2 that go through the attic.
00:13:49:14 - 00:14:22:02
Sam Rashkin: Maybe an exhaust fan may go through if it doesn't go through the soffit, but it's so minimized. It's it's so far superior. And then we have a complete interior barrier as well. So we mitigate that whole the vented attic condition with the missing topside air barrier. Then we have much more optimized insulation quantity to the latest codes. And it's verified in high performance programs to be, you know, grade one high quality installation.
00:14:22:02 - 00:14:50:18
Sam Rashkin: And you can lose 40 to 70% of the rated R value just from poor quality installation practices. What a huge difference. We optimize the windows and then we do airtight assemblies at ten inch hole get shrunk down to something like around four inches. Net for the whole house. You know, even a passive house might be 2 or 3in, but it's incredibly less infiltration losses and gain.
00:14:50:20 - 00:15:20:20
Sam Rashkin: It's just far, far better. So the outcomes, the the perception of comfort when you walk in this kind of enclosure is just a vast different experience. Surfaces are cooler in summer, warmer winter. Remember from last week, surface temperatures have 40% greater impact and perceived comfort than the ambient air temperature. So what a difference. The HVAC thermal losses are reduced from 45%.
00:15:20:22 - 00:15:51:03
Sam Rashkin: Highest 45%. Excuse me, down to almost zero. The superior noise reduction and the ultra low bills. Because this enclosure just barely sips BTUs to keep it. Keep it comfortable in the summer, in the winter. So this is, you know, just I'm not going to go through everything we do to get here. Again. If you want to get to this optimization closure, go view last week's session on Performance Matters.
00:15:51:09 - 00:16:16:10
Sam Rashkin: The whole focus, most of it on my end was about how do you get to this solution? Let's talk a little bit about just what happens when you're down on the left. You see what happens when you're missing air barriers that drop ceilings in the winter in an infrared image. Dark colors are cold like colors of warm. You see, the cold attic virtually is permeating everywhere.
00:16:16:17 - 00:16:41:08
Sam Rashkin: Creating comfort in this space will be a huge challenge. I don't know how much brute force you have to throw out these cold surface temperatures through the air conditioning system, or the heating cooling system to get comfort on the right. It's the opposite. It's the summer, and with the missing air barrier, it's 130 40 degree attic is permitting permeating through the fibrous insulation.
00:16:41:09 - 00:17:08:00
Sam Rashkin: You have virtually a thermal bypass and you have all these hot surfaces, again creating a real challenge to manage comfort. And then we talked about how important Slavoj insulation is. A lot of builders don't want to do it because it's a little bit of an expense. In some cases, the local jurisdictions forbid it because it is concerns about termite penetration into into the wood framed assemblies.
00:17:08:02 - 00:17:38:11
Sam Rashkin: There are solutions, things that can be done subject for another day. But the key thing is you have to recognize that the slab edges like this thermal highway for BTUs to flow out in the winter and in the summer of the infrared image. And righteous shows you you have a good wall assembly, but you have this absolute glowing slab edge showing evidence of all that heat loss going through coming from inside in the winter.
00:17:38:11 - 00:18:09:27
Sam Rashkin: So, you know, this is the enclosure. Details are profoundly important. Of course, thermal bridging here you have even a fairly reasonable framed assembly in terms of thermal bridging. And compare it to a sip some on the right. It's again it's night and day. So Yeti cooler versus a very porous kind of bucket to carry. Try to keep food cold in when you go out on a picnic or go to an event, it's just till you see the thermal images.
00:18:09:27 - 00:18:37:26
Sam Rashkin: Sometimes it's just not clear how powerful thermal bridging is at disrupting the enclosure and then the impact on comfort. And then you can see from the inside the same thing the ghosting, the, you know, the the stud showing through thermal bridging. In this case, you're inside. You see the cold temperatures outside by virtue of the heat escaping through the studs, creating the ghost marks that you see on the inside.
00:18:37:28 - 00:19:09:17
Sam Rashkin: And then bandits are like an absolute. Critical factor. And why we have called for bandwidth insulation. So tough to do, the framing coming across. And then after we have to try to pack an insulation at each, at each framing bay, along the along the enclosure perimeter, it's a very difficult detail. If builders don't want to spend the extra cost for the closed cell foam insulation, so this is a common.
00:19:09:19 - 00:19:40:23
Sam Rashkin: This is a common experience where you see heat exploding out of the floors, which means coal floors. I'd say virtually every house in the 450 home neighborhood I live in would evidence this thermal image because it was constructed without banjos insulation. And then you have the ultimate comfort nightmare the bonus room over the garage. This is like, just as you know, to go to a HVAC trade and say, give me comfort in this round.
00:19:40:24 - 00:20:04:29
Sam Rashkin: It's just setting him up or she up for for a real challenge to to to solve the problem. The reason the bonus room is a nightmare if you think about it as a box, five of the six surfaces are exposed to the outside. You have the one wall adjoining the house that has a condition room on the other side, but the top, the roof, the side walls are exposed and unconditioned to the unconditioned attic.
00:20:05:07 - 00:20:35:22
Sam Rashkin: You have the floor over unconditioned garage, and then you have the outside wall in front, facing the front, exposed to the outside weather as well. 5 to 6 surfaces. Most. Most rooms will have 1 or 2, possibly three surfaces. This room has five, and then the four insulation below that goes in often sags and drops, and you have complete thermal bypass around the floor insulation so that virtually its effectiveness might be where you lose 60, 70% of whatever the R value is that goes in the floor.
00:20:35:22 - 00:20:56:27
Sam Rashkin: And so you have, again, really cold floors, thermal bypass. You have the attic walls, which are often missing the air barrier on the back side facing the attic. And new walls are a challenge anyway. They often are leaky, have tremendous losses, and then, you know the doors to the little storage space that are provided, which is in the attic, is a huge thermal hall.
00:20:56:29 - 00:21:33:00
Sam Rashkin: We are just creating a massive challenge for HVAC company to come in and say, I can deliver comfort to this room, it's just a comfort nightmare. And then the next nightmare r r r decks and and balconies that extend from inside and outside. They're often missing again, the insulation, if it's slab construction, as you see here, it will be a virtual almost again beyond you keep going outside on a constant basis.
00:21:33:03 - 00:22:02:02
Sam Rashkin: That's not a slab. The wood framing details are very difficult to create. The thermal solution between the balcony and the house. Really big challenges that create lots of comfort risk for the rooms next to those balconies. Here's one building that should really interest you. I like showing it because it's the epitome of of losing control, of comfort. This is Aqua in Chicago.
00:22:02:02 - 00:22:32:00
Sam Rashkin: It's a beautiful, undulating set of balconies, architecturally very interesting, but thermally it's a nightmare. When I saw this building Chicago, I said, there's got to be an infrared image of the internet. I found the image of this exact wall you're looking at, and those you should look at those balconies is the most effective heat transfer mechanism for getting the heat in the winter outside to the exterior, and the summer getting the heat outside to the interior.
00:22:32:00 - 00:22:52:16
Sam Rashkin: And in fact, I look at this building more as you designing a radiator, you know, which is optimized to get heat into the room. Well, this is almost like a huge radiator designed to get the heat out of the building in the summer and into the winter. And notice every wall is 100% glass, so as hardly any thermal performance.
00:22:52:16 - 00:23:17:15
Sam Rashkin: I just can't imagine what the comfort bills are for this kind of solution for a high rise housing. And then lastly, I think I want to talk about in terms of the closure is how important the windows are in cold climates, virtually there again, this huge funnel for heat flow out. Last week we showed, you know, you can lose like 6,070% of the R values.
00:23:17:15 - 00:23:42:06
Sam Rashkin: The walls get more and more high performance if you don't match up the high performance wall with a really equally high performance window. So in a cold climate, if I have an 2830 wall, you want to have a triple glazed window or you will compromise like 4,050% of the frame wall assembly that you built. So you get you get the idea what I'm saying.
00:23:42:07 - 00:24:14:04
Sam Rashkin: The enclosure sets the stage. You have to get that right. And the next part is what can design do for you? Design and comfort. And so the ancient Indians who built the cliff dwellings of Mesa Verde 1100 years ago had it all figured out. They knew. They knew that nature was there with abundance, providing free heat in the winter, free cooling in the summer.
00:24:14:05 - 00:24:45:13
Sam Rashkin: All I had to do was sit there. Residential communities on south facing cliffs. And what happens? Of course, is in the winter the low sun comes through. It heats the thermal mass Adobe construction all day long through the penetrations that he has, the interior thermal mass. And all night you have this radiant surface temperatures that are warm, creating tremendous comfort in the day.
00:24:45:13 - 00:25:17:03
Sam Rashkin: The cycle continues over in the summer, the cliff is such that it blocks all the sun from hitting the Adobe, the cool diurnal, the huge swing with very cold nighttime temperatures allows a mass to get so. Cool that during the day, it basically provides the surface temperatures that create day round comfort, year round comfort. Not a single electron or fossil fuel BTU is consumed to create the comfort all natural.
00:25:17:10 - 00:25:44:25
Sam Rashkin: In contrast, now we look at City Center in Las Vegas and in desert for six months a year. It's way above 94 months. A year it's above 100. It's just it's just insane that this is the solution for how we build buildings. That ignores comfort in this building year round comfort. No fossil fuel, no electricity in this building.
00:25:44:25 - 00:26:09:27
Sam Rashkin: If there's a power outage, you will die in these buildings. If you don't get out of them within three, 4 or 5 hours, it's just going to just overheat. It requires such brute force so we can do better with natural comfort. Now, for those of you that been around longer than others, you will recognize natural comfort. It's a concept we used to call passive solar.
00:26:09:29 - 00:26:43:08
Sam Rashkin: I don't use passive solar because the word passive tends to be negative and words of free. We talk about this in the and when we discuss optimizing sales. Why would I use the word passive? That implies low energy, lack of effort. It's just it's such a negative term to apply to something so important. And we know on the other hand, we're we're the universe of consumers out there.
00:26:43:10 - 00:27:13:25
Sam Rashkin: All would perceive passive as negative. 100% of them probably think things natural are good. So my recommendation is choose the words that are powerful that create value. So natural comforts what I do. Enough about that. And therefore components of natural comfort natural heating, natural cooling, natural lighting, natural fresh air. And what happens is they all use this, this common set of tools to get it.
00:27:13:25 - 00:27:36:07
Sam Rashkin: And I'll show you how that works in a minute. So I'm not going to go through these that right column for just a minute. But I want to just show you the user experience benefits when you say, you know, I have all this abundance of natural comfort through the sun and the wind that are for free. What happens when I leverage that?
00:27:36:09 - 00:27:59:01
Sam Rashkin: Well, first I wound up with glare free views like you've seen the left versus no view on the right. And there are only three reasons we put windows in a building. One is for daylight, one is for views, and one is for fresh air or open and get air. So we've probably the view is the most important of those reasons for windows.
00:27:59:01 - 00:28:28:02
Sam Rashkin: And on the right we've completely blocked the most important reason for the window because it's not addressing the glare. So glare free views is a freebie if you design with natural comfort, next experience you have is really low bills. This analysis done in California, looked at what would happen if we just oriented building south. Forget all the other tools we're going to talk about for thermal mass and shading and other solutions.
00:28:28:02 - 00:28:52:09
Sam Rashkin: Let's just orient buildings correctly. And so they looked at the light blue bars or coastal locations. And the dark blue bars are for inland locations. And if I would just summarize without going through the detail of the bars, generally you're looking at 25% free heating, heating and cooling just by getting south orientation correct. And that's just a freebie for doing the right thing.
00:28:52:10 - 00:29:20:21
Sam Rashkin: North north north south orientation of our homes. And then the impact of thermal mass is it's like a it's like a thermal battery when you even when you design a good natural comfort home, there's so much sun coming in the winter. You have the possibly you have the possibility of overheating. So you use your thermal battery, the thermal mass to store and to stretch and give legs to the comfort.
00:29:20:21 - 00:29:57:16
Sam Rashkin: So after the sun sets all that he can be released and you're getting this free heating many, many, many more hours after the day is done. And then most importantly is the power of that surface temperature being so comfortable. Mean radiant temperature is 40% greater impact on perceived comfort, comfort, and ambient air, as you mentioned earlier. And then the natural light is if you don't close the blinds, if you're you have the right orientation and you can let the natural light in.
00:29:57:19 - 00:30:30:29
Sam Rashkin: It is an amazing boost to wellness. Vitamin D is greater. Wards off seasonal depression, improve sleep, better productivity. This is a Harvard Business Review study, and I look at where my pets always every day hang out. It's like they know just intuitively there's just smart and no daylight is so healthy. So optimizing natural light is a huge benefit of getting natural comfort.
00:30:30:29 - 00:30:51:04
Sam Rashkin: Integrated your design, and then you can see the daylight difference when you do it right, when you do it wrong. So on the left you have when you manage daylight and shading and orientation, you have this beautiful views. You have a beautiful daylight coming in on the right, the same kind of configuration, all the blinds close and Newman tendency to not.
00:30:51:05 - 00:31:18:16
Sam Rashkin: It's not to change every day. It's is just to leave the blinds closed. 98% of home builders designers architects for natural light top home featuring 2022. So it's a huge benefit people recognize I think it's time. As designers we integrate it very carefully in our designs and then fresh air is just crazy improvement to wellness as well. It just we all know it.
00:31:18:18 - 00:31:41:12
Sam Rashkin: When houses get stuck in one fresh air. There's so many days in swing seasons, maybe 4 or 5 months a year when it's crazy to run your ventilation system and not just open your windows. That fresh air just coming in just feels great. Notwithstanding the some pollen issues and things that can come up. And that's where your ventilation systems are be real helpful.
00:31:41:13 - 00:32:10:26
Sam Rashkin: But there's so many months when the fresh air is just so superior, just to relying on trying to drag in 60, 70 CFM with the ventilation. You want to have both. And so what fresh air does eliminates the stellar removes dust by diluting it. It accumulates in the homes, improves concentration and health. So we know this I think this is a mayo clinic study that found those results.
00:32:10:26 - 00:32:37:16
Sam Rashkin: And so here we are with all these experiences. The left views for heating and cooling, superior comfort, natural light, fresh air and the resilience. You know, our spaces can float. And even there's a power failure because of the natural comfort. We have more extended time, even with a supply outage where we stay comfortable. And what's what's that all worth?
00:32:37:16 - 00:33:02:13
Sam Rashkin: And I estimate about tens of thousands of dollars. But of course, it's you know, it's it's a hard one to explain. It's not that hard if we make the effort. Everyone wants fresh air, natural light, good comfort, free low bills. I mean, it's just we just have to be recognize the benefits and then translate them. Exhale. And the cost of it is where I go crazy.
00:33:02:14 - 00:33:27:10
Sam Rashkin: It costs no more to do all this. Exploiting free resources. The sun and the wind cost you zero. And the argument from builders will be well, but I'm giving my lots. What can I do? And I can tell you, you can recognize the laws of probability are that 25% of your lots will be with the south rear elevation, 25% of the lots will be with the south front elevation.
00:33:27:10 - 00:33:56:00
Sam Rashkin: So have your design options for those lots that leverage natural comfort 50% of your lots. This will be a great strategy. And remember I said you had these basic suite of tools for how you use natural comfort, orientation, shading, thermal mass, prevailing breeze orientation, and capture and cool routes. So the natural heating you're doing orientation, thermal mass for natural cooling.
00:33:56:06 - 00:34:25:13
Sam Rashkin: All of those tools serve to create far superior cooling outcome. And then for fresh air, Pavilion breeze orientation and capture and natural lighting again is going to be orientation and shading. So the six basic tools get you all these benefits natural heating, natural cooling, natural fresh air, natural light. So the reason it all works is because the sun has a.
00:34:25:16 - 00:34:31:25
Sam Rashkin: Absolutely. Set.
00:34:31:27 - 00:34:58:03
Sam Rashkin: Way. It moves across the year and the summer. It rises in the northeast, it sets in the northwest and it's much, much higher in the sky. Something like seven degrees 65, 68, 72 degrees sloped down to the house. In the winter. It's at its slowest, maybe 30 degrees slope into your house, and it rises in the southeast and it sets in the southwest.
00:34:58:03 - 00:35:22:07
Sam Rashkin: So much smaller arc days are shorter. We all know this kind of way. The path of the sun works across the year. It's just the way the planets need and how we rotate and everything works. So orientation optimizes access and control of the sunlight east west. So when you have south, you have the maximum control maximum axis or east west orientation.
00:35:22:07 - 00:35:45:13
Sam Rashkin: We have the least access and the least control and a north orientation. Basically we get to fuze light and sunlight is less of a factor helping or hurting us. So let's look at what we can do. First thing is in subdivisions it costs no more to lay out streets, so they create north south orientation. This this concept sketch shows 100% north south blocks.
00:35:45:16 - 00:36:11:22
Sam Rashkin: It's easy to do. We leverage the $10,000 of value, and the outcome will be homeowners will experience over 30 years of mortgage, tens of thousands of dollars of savings on the utility bill. And let's say I mentioned again, you have 250% of your lots. You have two options. One will be facing south in front. What in. And 125% will be in the rear.
00:36:11:24 - 00:36:32:09
Sam Rashkin: So if I have a front facing south home I can have this configuration. No set for the homes on those lines. In this case, if it's a one story home, I can use a tooth configuration, get light both in the back of the home. In the front of the home again, you notice the overhangs block the summer sun let in the winter sun.
00:36:32:11 - 00:36:55:04
Sam Rashkin: Thermal mass might be in the floors, the counters, fireplaces, whatever it may be. All the store and and kind of be it battery so the comfort can extend way past when sunsets. Very simple. You see a solution here on the right what that might look like. And when the back of the house, the backyard faces south, we may make that wall higher.
00:36:55:05 - 00:37:16:27
Sam Rashkin: Put a trellis in the middle. So again, we're blocking the sun. In the summer we're letting the sun in the winter again, thermal mass for controlling comfort. And here on the right you might see a look of how we use the trellis and the high wall of realization to create all this extra comfort and lighting and just free heating and cooling all.
00:37:17:03 - 00:37:38:28
Sam Rashkin: It's beautiful when you see it in action in contrast to this. So this is a house in Orlando. You see all the blinds are closed. Its virtually no consideration for orientation. So we have no choice. We can't let that sun just all morning or all afternoon just blown to the house. So we leave the blinds closed all day.
00:37:39:00 - 00:38:04:23
Sam Rashkin: In contrast to a friend of mine's house, Paul Tortellini, he works for a national renewable energy lab, works out of Connecticut. So here's his house notice in the summer, the and the winter. Rather how the sunlight is pouring in, creating all this natural comfort, natural heating all winter long. Then you go summer and look how completely this overhang shades both the windows and the walls.
00:38:04:28 - 00:38:29:25
Sam Rashkin: It might be 90 degrees outside, but the air next to the wall might be 75 degrees. And so you get that benefit. Plus you have no sun coming through. So it's like a zero. So he can coefficient. No sun is hitting the windows. What a comfort of vantage. The house I designed in 1982. This is. I was I was living in Sacramento, California.
00:38:29:26 - 00:38:56:16
Sam Rashkin: This is in Chico. This house California again you can see everything. Shaded wing walls, a lot of other details, thermal mass, all these details make a difference. Speaking thermal mass, you need about five square feet for every one square foot of aperture of window. Cats collecting light. And you may need a little less today with with you know, throughout the house we use the low windows.
00:38:56:16 - 00:39:20:09
Sam Rashkin: We have less sun coming in. So you can reduce that ratio probably down in half. But anyway, this is kind of just a rule of thumb for how much mass you need. And people say that's a lot of thermal mass. It's easy to integrate. And floors and counters and fireplaces lots of ways we can get mass. And then those surface temperatures just are your comfort enhancer.
00:39:20:09 - 00:39:48:03
Sam Rashkin: Just everything feels better with that. And then note and then capturing the prevailing breeze and the natural fresh air, they obviously obvious best solution is cross ventilation. That will give you the best if you can get two openings into adjoining walls adjacent walls, that's next. Best good would be two openings in the same wall. If you have, you have no way to get additional opening on another wall.
00:39:48:03 - 00:40:10:20
Sam Rashkin: But separate the openings and you're going to get hardly any natural ventilation if it's just one big opening, because the air coming in won't have a way to let the air get out another opening. So it tends to neutralize and minimize the flow so you know how to get the most. And we can apply that. Let's look at cross ventilation.
00:40:10:22 - 00:40:36:27
Sam Rashkin: And again there are solutions. What you do the high windows don't work. They don't create airflow that creates comfort. Low windows work better high and low. You don't want to come in high and go out low. You come out come in low and go out high because the natural tendency is air comes in, gets a little warmer to rise and it amplifies the exhaust air going out and really creates extra ventilation coming in the home.
00:40:36:27 - 00:40:59:05
Sam Rashkin: And if you have a sawtooth configuration, you don't want the sawtooth face the same direction as the air coming in. So if your strategy is emphasizing fresh air, you would have to face the other way. Notwithstanding the solution we showed earlier to get the sunlight deeper into the space. So sometimes you have to balance these.
00:40:59:07 - 00:41:22:05
Sam Rashkin: These different natural resource opportunities. And normally I would face a sawtooth the same way as the south direction. But if your emphasis is on natural fresh air. This would give you the most. The big thing is that studies have found, even with just slight winds less than two miles an hour, you can lower the indoor temperature as much as five degrees Fahrenheit.
00:41:22:07 - 00:41:55:03
Sam Rashkin: Free air conditioning and a great application, of course, is the Charleston Center Cam Center, where the homes from the revolutionary era are still intact. And it's amazing. Beautiful city to see because one of the stark buildings. But people even unconsciously, are just probably recognizing these homes are built to optimize comfort. They're facing the prevailing breeze coming from the ocean.
00:41:55:06 - 00:42:22:19
Sam Rashkin: They have a long, narrow configuration in that direction, so they capture the most breezes and they have cross ventilation, have high windows. They do all the techniques. But they had to back in the late 1700s, early 1800s. There was no air conditioning. There wasn't air conditioning until carrier developed it in the early 1990s. And so you you would have no chance at comfort unless you did this.
00:42:22:19 - 00:42:53:05
Sam Rashkin: So virtually, as you go through the entire downtown, you see this beautiful solution and natural comfort. And I think it really resonates with people. It could be subliminal, but we get it when in Charleston, not only the sounds beautiful, they're beautiful because they respond to the climate they're in. And then we go to the next option, which is if if all we can do is have windows in one wall, because a roommate, this room may have other rooms on either side.
00:42:53:09 - 00:43:16:19
Sam Rashkin: What do we do? And so the windows on wall, we can actually choose which way casement window opens, or use wing walls to create completely different outcomes in terms of fresh air. And I'm going to show you one example and then show you the pictures of the rest. But you have a wing wall here and this is a prevailing direction.
00:43:16:22 - 00:43:41:14
Sam Rashkin: That wing wall is kind of blocking the wind into the space. This wing wall is blocking the wind from coming into this window. So you can create negative pressure that enhances the flow through the space and out. If the wing wall is on this side, blocking the wind coming in, you have positive pressure on both sides, and you would neutralize the fresh air flow coming into the space.
00:43:41:17 - 00:44:02:15
Sam Rashkin: Hopefully you get what I'm saying. And so there are lots of ways you can configure it. But the point is not to give you the solution right now, but to show you the power of design. And it's thoughtful to create solutions that enhance comfort. Now if the we can get the apertures, we get the windows in two adjacent walls, the same thing happens.
00:44:02:15 - 00:44:27:08
Sam Rashkin: So here you have the windows on adjacent walls, and we use the same casement window orientations or wing walls to create positive pressure that lets win wind to flow come in one window, block it so it doesn't go in the other window. Negative pressure and you optimize flow. So we won't go through every orientation. But I want to just show you design is powerful tool.
00:44:27:08 - 00:44:48:27
Sam Rashkin: If you actually think about your free gift, the abundance of wind and sun and how you're going to integrate that in your design, and then the designs are beautiful when you look at them and you see designs, just like I mentioned in Charleston, when you when you we when you do this and we're even a lay.
00:44:48:29 - 00:45:20:09
Sam Rashkin: Person without knowledge about natural comfort or passive solar, we get that this is a beautiful solution. Lastly, our natural comfort is cool roots. The big thing about cobras is that they have a higher reflective reflectance. So we're an attic. Make it up to 130 with a normal asphalt shingle roof. By using a cool roof it will be 40 degrees cooler, much, much less thermal gradient, therefore much less pressure and comfort with warmer ceilings and more heat loss with heating.
00:45:20:09 - 00:45:44:13
Sam Rashkin: Cooling systems that might be up there so often. A very, very great solution in an existing home with the ducks in the attic. And you're kind of stuck because you're not building a new home, is replace and you have significant cooling loads replace. When it's time to replace your roof, specify a cool roof. They don't cost any more high reflectivity and up to 40 degree.
00:45:44:13 - 00:46:13:04
Sam Rashkin: Reduce attic temperatures. And just give you an example how beautiful it is here on the left. We're not optimized for the very, very hot climates in Melbourne, Australia, and the prevalent prevailing black roof esthetic that they have there is crazy. In contrast, in commuter, where it gets brutally hot for really long stretches, the white roofs are just this amazing improvement in comfort.
00:46:13:04 - 00:46:45:23
Sam Rashkin: And that's why everywhere you go you see these white roofs. It's kind of become the symbol of Bermuda. And it's beautiful because it creates so much value in these homes with natural cooling. And here's a cool roof, and you can't tell the difference between a cool roof and a normal shingle roof. So I just want to have a good friend, Vivian from Carnegie Mellon, who calls this environmental surfing, which is a great term, but I wanted to show you her diagrams show how all this play.
00:46:45:23 - 00:47:19:19
Sam Rashkin: So without a high performance enclosure or high efficiency, you have you have this heating load, you know, in January it drops into May, September it starts getting up increases to January. And this is for commercial buildings, but it would be very similar to residential but but different. And then when we go to a high performance enclosure, no windows and walls and air barriers, we talked about we have this amazing transformation in the enclosure and how it works.
00:47:19:19 - 00:47:41:00
Sam Rashkin: So we we do the heating loads so they're much lower and the and the system is off for much longer, longer swing season when we don't need it. And it starts in October instead of September. It stops in mid-April instead of mid-May. And so it's lower and lower swing seasons. Then we add the natural comfort. And now we've gone from this curve to this curve.
00:47:41:00 - 00:48:06:09
Sam Rashkin: It might be a 6,070% reduction in your net requirements for heating and cooling. And that's just heating cooling the same thing without efficiency. You have a cooling going way up in summer. Since its commercial buildings, you tend to have the year round cooling. That tends to happen. So in contrast residential it would drop off. So you had none in April and none, let's say mid-October.
00:48:06:09 - 00:48:39:18
Sam Rashkin: But it's the same basic kind of curve. And then with a high performance enclosure it drops like 30%. And then with again with natural comfort and natural fresh air, you get this huge reduction. So this is so everything we just discussed, this is what we're doing and we're shrinking the requirements. We're getting all these natural comfort features. And that brings us finally now we're ready for the heating cooling supplier installer to do their magic.
00:48:39:19 - 00:49:10:13
Sam Rashkin: We're giving them a baseline that is massively massively better. And the risk factors, the quality, the noise, the cost, everything is lowered. So here's why you should be concerned under normal construction. When we tested hundreds of homes and went in and inspected systems, this is National Renewable Energy Laboratory, went out and did a extensive survey looking at existing installations, heating, cooling.
00:49:10:14 - 00:49:52:11
Sam Rashkin: It was a nightmare to see the outcomes 30 to 93%. Systems equipments were oversize, which means shorter cycles, higher costs. It means a lot of less effective dehumanization. It just insane how oversize the how how frequent the occurrence of over sizing was happening. Refrigerant charge was low almost 30 to 80% of the time, and duck leakage was a problem two thirds to 100% of the time, and airflow in terms of good well designed duct systems and proper flow was low 50 to over 90% of the time that Euston.
00:49:52:11 - 00:50:22:08
Sam Rashkin: We have a problem. The HVAC installation infrastructure is not set up to deliver high quality installation. It has to do with we don't size and layout duct systems as rigorously rigorous as we should. The installer is not being held accountable. Aren't absence of Energy Star version three quality installation requirements. You have almost no checks going on. And the these this is the.
00:50:22:11 - 00:50:58:23
Sam Rashkin: This is the kind of the skill challenge we have with the existing infrastructure. So imagine when the ducks are in unconditioned addicts that's 10 to 45% additional thermal losses where we have leakage on the return side, you have this horrible environment of dust and moisture that can seep into your ducts and then be distributed through your house. And we have to start first by getting design right and then quality right, and that do via commissioning some design, really calculating the heating cooling loads, taking into account all the key factors.
00:50:58:23 - 00:51:19:27
Sam Rashkin: We'll talk about those in a second. On the equipment you want to specify that equipment that meets the loads you want to then design compact duct layouts. If you have a high performance enclosure, and in human climates, you need to figure out what you're going to do with a high latent capacity, especially with longer swing seasons and shorter cycles.
00:51:20:00 - 00:51:47:17
Sam Rashkin: And so demon, it has to be part of the design strategy commissioning. You want to ensure proper airflow, proper refrigerant charge, and you want to just measure that the airflow is getting all the rooms. So essentially this is what we do with the Energy Star version two and Zoo Energy Ready Home program. The Energy Ready Home program goes a step further and requires the ducks in the condition space you use.
00:51:47:19 - 00:52:15:09
Sam Rashkin: Upgrade from Energy Star. Energy Star version three. If for no other reason, everyone should be doing Zero Energy Ready Home, do it for that reason. Okay? Want to talk about load calculations? The huge impact a lot of factors have that are not consistently accounted for in the sizing location, the approximate conditioned area. People get the basement really confused what it's conditioned and condition.
00:52:15:12 - 00:52:41:02
Sam Rashkin: Lots of other confusion happens with designs that are complicated. Orientation the mechanical system, location in or out of conditioned space, wall glass and roof specifications. So many things happen in the sizing when it's done quickly, without rigor that often we don't see a consistent, high quality sizing results. Let me give you two examples that will show you how impactful this is.
00:52:41:02 - 00:53:10:19
Sam Rashkin: Orientation and location in or out of the condition space. So I'm not going to walk you through details, but these are the sizing outcomes. When we run for a house in Austin, Texas, home and we have orientation that is south on the top and west on the right. So we take the same home on top and oriented south, and then we turn it 90 degrees.
00:53:10:19 - 00:53:49:21
Sam Rashkin: So it's facing west. The net heat gain that you have to address goes from 60,000 up to 83,000. You have two extra tons of sizing requirement just by turning the house 90 degrees. That's how important it is if you get orientation and don't consider it. If the HVAC sizing person for the entire subdivision just does one orientation for all the homes, they're going to be off by up to two tons just for orientation, then take location in and out of the condition space and top.
00:53:49:21 - 00:54:28:24
Sam Rashkin: We're in an unconditioned addict and that's 74,000 BTUs drop down to 60,000 BTUs. We move the system in the conditioned space one ton difference. Just based on what are you looking the heating cooling system. So if orientation and location in this house in Austin, Texas was a three ton impact, if I integrated those factors and optimizing the house, the orientation I optimize and the ducks and heating cooling system, I just reduced my system size three ton.
00:54:28:25 - 00:54:57:12
Sam Rashkin: I reduced my duct layout from an extensive layout to a very small compact layout. So many cost savings from doing the enclosure right. And next thing you have to do is consider innovations, ducks and conditioned space. We mentioned variable speed equipment which is much more responsive. Often inverter driven equipment like to see with LG later later. Often variable speed is matched with systems called Ductless mini splits.
00:54:57:15 - 00:55:28:04
Sam Rashkin: We will talk about that and plug and play duct systems. We use more traditional HVAC systems, and we have to get the automatic automated fault detection and diagnostics. Here you see a house and you know the systems, the advanced systems are so much smaller and more quiet, so used for variable speed systems. A lot of times they're on the wall and where it used to be perceived, maybe a negative esthetic more and more as as manufacturers are making nicer, nicer looking units.
00:55:28:04 - 00:56:00:19
Sam Rashkin: I think that goes away if it's still an issue. They have tray systems. Again, we will show you a lot of solutions, but you have lots of ways to get your HVAC system in the conditioned space, and that's what everyone needs to do. You can have it between the floors. You can have a drop ceiling array ceiling. You can have an inventive crawl space, inventive attic, which is you know, we talked about a lot last week the benefits of invented addicts and many splits where we have the units all like on the wall somewhere, and they're all inside the condition space.
00:56:00:19 - 00:56:22:18
Sam Rashkin: And then less desirable, we can have the system in the attic, but sitting on the rafters so we can insulate over the top and encapsulate the mini insulation in yellow. I highlighted the ones I recommend to everyone listening between floors on vented cross faces, invented addicts, mini splits. So. But more about these with a later, but I do.
00:56:22:18 - 00:56:45:22
Sam Rashkin: I also tell you that there's a plug and play deck system app for more traditional HVAC systems, which is a standard two and a half duct running everywhere about 2530 CFM. And basically you just run as many ducts to a space as you need. So you need 75 CFM. You might run three of those to that room with three supply grills.
00:56:45:22 - 00:57:05:11
Sam Rashkin: And you see basically it's just a very small flexible. The only connections are at the plenum and at the boot. And they both snap in airtight. So there's no duct sealing. It just installs automatically takes well, it takes the installer out of the equation and they snap it to the plenum and they snap it to the boot. It's an airtight system.
00:57:05:13 - 00:57:13:07
Sam Rashkin: They stretch out the duck, the airflow is very good amount of waste and amount of.
00:57:13:09 - 00:57:34:10
Sam Rashkin: Requirements are so much less the pallets for these systems or a fraction the size. And again you can see what a layout looks with the plug and play deck systems. So the only place where the ducks have connections again erected at the boot and then goes down to the plenum. So that's why it's much more airtight, better flow.
00:57:34:11 - 00:57:59:08
Sam Rashkin: They stretch them out. So a system consider if you do traditional. The big thing though is when you go to high performance enclosure, you don't need this layout using the left for any everything to the extremities, you get a much more compact lower cost system, much smaller ducts, much smaller heating cooling system. Everything's lower, lower, lower cost and demon is not extra credit when you go high performance.
00:57:59:08 - 00:58:28:18
Sam Rashkin: This is the normal hot, humid zone. Everything east of the Mississippi and Rockies we get. You're going to have to start thinking about I'm not going to go a lot in here because I'm running a little bit longer than I want. But there are strategies, standalone demon fires, ducted whole house demon fires, some variable speed air conditioning systems are being developed where they can throttle down and function as a demon to fire, as well as an air conditioner.
00:58:28:19 - 00:59:00:00
Sam Rashkin: Look out for that. The biggest thing I want to call attention to is a set point for demon has a huge impact on your energy cost. If I set my game for 60% versus 50%, the kilowatt hour consumption goes from 170 to 800. In one analysis, we ran, which is five times more energy use when I keep my image at 50 versus 60 and 60% is absolutely comfortable, you don't need to run it at 50.
00:59:00:01 - 00:59:28:09
Sam Rashkin: So the set point will have a big factor. Automated fault detection diagnostics essentially is a way of attaching sensors to to your ducks and equipment, and then automatically knowing the refrigerant charges off the air flows off. If if you know if the static pressure is not right. So this is attack on system. I hope eventually manufacturers just embed this into the equipment.
00:59:28:10 - 00:59:55:24
Sam Rashkin: It could create some havoc if the infrastructure is not installing systems correctly, where as soon as I leave, the lights are flashing and creating callbacks. So there's some challenges for how it gets integrated, but it's already out there. Essentially, Predict by Emerson takes 15 minutes to install. I think their business model is a small fee to install it, and then like $9 a month for 24 over seven monitoring of your system.
00:59:55:26 - 01:00:23:06
Sam Rashkin: So my wrap up here recommendations is that comfort is a system you got to build for comfort. You've got to optimize the enclosure. It's insanely better in every way to do that in terms of just the value to the customer. Then you got to design for. We can't keep ignoring natural comfort, the free resources, the abundance of wind and solar energy.
01:00:23:07 - 01:00:57:01
Sam Rashkin: Then engineer for comfort. They got to optimize the HVAC system sizing, selecting the right systems and variable speed. Your friend and high performance enclosures really solving the demon. And then you have to deliver the comfort. You have to optimize the HVAC installation. The more you choose systems like mini splits, the quality installation becomes. You take the installer out of equation for the most part more you go with more traditional systems, you have to account for all the extra costs it takes to get to a quality installation.
01:00:57:01 - 01:01:14:21
Sam Rashkin: And that's why I'm going to hand off now to Voya to talk about the LG Air Conditioning technologies, mini split technology and all the innovation that goes into that. So thank you all. Today we're going to questions after Voya. I hope this made sense.
01:01:14:24 - 01:01:19:27
Mike Collignon: All right. For the screen controls were sent just over to you right now.
01:01:20:00 - 01:01:24:09
Voya Milasinovic: I got them.
01:01:24:11 - 01:01:29:24
Voya Milasinovic: Let me know when you can see.
01:01:29:27 - 01:01:31:15
Mike Collignon: Zoom.
01:01:31:17 - 01:01:39:21
Voya Milasinovic: Let's see I need to figure out which one. Where is my screen go?
01:01:39:23 - 01:01:44:10
Mike Collignon: This is zoom interface and a browser behind it.
01:01:44:12 - 01:01:53:21
Voya Milasinovic: I am trying to figure out which. There it is. Okay. All right. You should be able to see it now.
01:01:53:23 - 01:01:55:21
Mike Collignon: Oh looking great. Looking great.
01:01:55:25 - 01:02:04:25
Voya Milasinovic: That's the one you see. Okay let me go through and click through these.
01:02:04:27 - 01:02:09:29
Voya Milasinovic: Quick slides.
01:02:10:02 - 01:02:40:27
Voya Milasinovic: Because I really want to just kind of talk about a couple of really key things as far as the product goes. But really predominantly one of the main things I want to do is just, again, second, everything that Sam just discussed and talked about, back in the day with HVAC systems that were just extremely inefficient, you know, either on or off, you got really, really good comfort.
01:02:40:29 - 01:03:03:18
Voya Milasinovic: Most folks didn't complain about it because you got exactly what you were looking for, right? You got cold air, and when you blew cold air, it will call there constantly, cost a lot of money, very, very inefficient. But it was really a system designed to overcome a lot of the issues with leaky envelopes as the cost of energy increased.
01:03:03:18 - 01:03:32:10
Voya Milasinovic: And as we all know, the cost of energy will only continue to increase. I have yet to meet a company that went on. My God, guys, we just figured out a way to become way, way more efficient. So we will sell our stuff for cheaper. And that's never happened. So in the energy industry, we can expect the cost to continue to grow exponentially as it has historically.
01:03:32:12 - 01:04:04:27
Voya Milasinovic: So that forces us for two reasons, really, to build tighter homes. One is energy. A bigger reason, in my opinion, is also health of the occupant, the comfort of the occupant. So as that continues to change, we see the push for efficiency of HVAC equipment, heating, cooling, the push for efficiency of water, heating equipment, water delivery systems and something's got to get right.
01:04:04:28 - 01:04:31:21
Voya Milasinovic: You can't just continue to say, oh yeah, we're going to magically make everything more efficient. You got to rob Peter to pay Paul one way or another. So what that translates to is that as we make the air conditioning systems more efficient, we have to focus on sensible heat, and we have to do that at the detrimental latent heat.
01:04:31:24 - 01:05:06:24
Voya Milasinovic: So really the challenge to us as many factors is how do we make a system that is not only efficient at removing sensible heat or adding sensible heat, efficient at maintaining indoor moisture levels, because those are required for health, comfort and longevity of our structures? What most of us in the building industry don't really think about very often is that once you have humidity levels below 35, you start to get cracking and warping of wood.
01:05:06:25 - 01:05:34:21
Voya Milasinovic: So any of your wood, furniture, wood finishes, everything starts to fail and suffer. That's a lot of money that we invested into a home, to just sit there and watch it crack. The other part of that equation is what I live in Houston and a lot of other areas, including the Ohio River Valley, most of the coastal areas, especially during the shoulder seasons when we get high humidity, we get mold and mildew growth.
01:05:34:21 - 01:06:05:29
Voya Milasinovic: We get a perfect breeding ground for bacteria and viruses, which affects our health. So really we want to maintain that 45 to 60% relative humidity level. So how do we do that efficiently with equipment that also doesn't cost an arm and a leg. So we have to think of newer strategies. But the first and foremost thing that we have to do is control control control.
01:06:06:07 - 01:06:30:21
Voya Milasinovic: Control is always king no matter what we do, no matter whether it's construction, whether it's our personal finances, whatever the heck it may be, we gotta control. And the best way to control it when it comes to home health is that old adage that Allison Bayles wrote a whole book about said a house has to breed. Or does it?
01:06:30:24 - 01:06:54:12
Voya Milasinovic: I have to breed too, but I would prefer to do it only through here, where I can control it and where it's actually meant for me to aspirate through. When my home breeds through various holes that I have no idea exist, or how they change, or what kind of wrap may be there this week. Not exactly the best situation.
01:06:54:12 - 01:07:17:14
Voya Milasinovic: So we got to tighten up. We got to make sure that we are building homes that are able to withstand power loss for short periods of time without the comfort of the homeowners and the occupants getting way too out of whack. We also have to create homes that are resilient from the perspective of how long are they going to last?
01:07:17:14 - 01:07:38:05
Voya Milasinovic: I mean, if we're going to spend 30 years paying for something, we all want to live in it for at least a little while before we have to invest money into it to repair it. And for at least most of us would like to leave it to our kids do without leaving them a money pit, but leaving them an actual piece of investment, right piece of piece of our legacy.
01:07:38:07 - 01:08:11:28
Voya Milasinovic: So you all know about the existing HVAC systems? I'm not going to belabor too much on inverter drives. What they are. I'm sure that if there are questions, please do go ahead and ask them in the chat in the question format, be more than happy to answer how standard air to air heat pumps work, how inverter driven heat pumps work, what I'd really like to spend a little bit of time talking about what we what are we doing and where are we going next?
01:08:12:00 - 01:08:42:08
Voya Milasinovic: You all know by now that the refrigerants are changing. We are going from standard refrigerants that we've been used to since, what, 2002, roughly 2001, 2002 was when Fortran A was first brought into market. I was a contractor at the time in the lovely state of Florida working with Carrier and Bryant equipment. So for us it was Piron and it was the greatest, the next greatest thing, R 22 was on its way out.
01:08:42:08 - 01:09:08:23
Voya Milasinovic: And then today we're sitting here looking at our Fortran A going, yep, it's got too much global warming potential. So it needs to go out. So what's the new thing coming in for some folks it's our 32 like us. For other folks it's our 54 B. Both of those refrigerants are very very similar. They're both blended was considered A to Z refrigerants which means they're slightly flammable.
01:09:08:25 - 01:09:40:10
Voya Milasinovic: That changes some of the things that we have to think about in commercial facilities, where most of the lines have now have to be run through fire rated chases. And in residential, we as a manufacturer just simply have to install some additional sensors and install safety devices in our equipment that if there is a leak and we do we do detect that leak, we can shut the unit down so that we're not adding a gas into a residence while folks are sleeping.
01:09:40:10 - 01:10:06:29
Voya Milasinovic: Just simple, basic common sense stuff. Right. So what is next after this? Because as we know, the way things are changing, the way that the EPA rules are 32 and 454 B are not going to stay here forever. If we get the next 5 to 6 years or so out of these refrigerants, we're going to be lucky. So what are the next ones?
01:10:06:29 - 01:10:33:25
Voya Milasinovic: Well, we don't know yet. Some folks would love to bring in R2 90, which is essentially propane zero global warming potential, great refrigerant, super efficient, abundant. But it's not there yet. So how do we bridge the gap between the folks that don't care and the folks that are like, I don't want anything that has to have a sensor and shut off in order for me to survive or be healthy.
01:10:33:25 - 01:11:01:14
Voya Milasinovic: I don't want that in my home. So we can offer water systems. Air to water. Heat pumps are not new. There's something that has been used in Europe for, at least from the LG perspective, for the last eight years. They have had a tremendous success. Really, really good quality product. When designed properly, it performs flawlessly and it is highly efficient.
01:11:01:17 - 01:11:31:29
Voya Milasinovic: But it also opens us up to some really cool things on the new construction side as well as retrofit side, especially when it comes to heating predominant climates. And I'll also touch upon some food for thought for the cooling predominant climates in these air to water systems. So I'm going to skip to the next slide real quick and skip this one, and I'll come back to it in just a quick minute.
01:11:32:03 - 01:12:06:26
Voya Milasinovic: But this is really what I want to touch on. Is the model block air to water keep bump. This is a very very flexible system currently for LG. It comes in 41,040 8050 5000 sizes. I personally am a huge advocate of simply eliminating the 41 and 48, because all three are essentially the same unit that is simply limited through software on the top end, so that we can get the right certifications through archery.
01:12:06:28 - 01:12:39:06
Voya Milasinovic: This is a system where I do not have to worry about sizing. I do not have to worry about my minimum capacities. I do not have to worry about freezing my coil in cooling season. I can run cold water at 41 degrees down to 41 degrees on essentially what's an inverter driven variable speed compressor coupled with a variable speed ground first pump.
01:12:39:08 - 01:13:10:02
Voya Milasinovic: So both the compressor and the poem have the capacity to go down to 10%, turn down and all the way to 100% turn up ratio. And all my system cares about is what is my water set point temperature, and what is the water temperature of the water coming back to the outdoor unit and it stages the compressor, speeds it up, slows it down or the pump, or both as necessary to maintain flow and to maintain water temperature.
01:13:10:05 - 01:13:32:03
Voya Milasinovic: So what does that do? It opens me up to like a world of possibilities on the units. I can hook it up to a radiant four system. I can hook it up to radiant base for heating. I can hook it up to a hydronic cooling or heating air handler. I can even run them as the hot water if I need to see.
01:13:32:05 - 01:13:55:27
Voya Milasinovic: Just to jump another slide real quick here if I need to. As you look here on the slide, I can also add a buffer thing or two buffer things if I want the ability in the shoulder seasons to quickly switch between heating and cooling. Now I've added extra capacity of water, which takes a lot longer for it to lose its temperature than air.
01:13:56:00 - 01:14:17:22
Voya Milasinovic: So I now have the ability to a single piece to handle my domestic hot water needs, to handle my radiant needs for the deep winter, in places where that thermal mass is key for efficiency. But I also can now add cooling, whether it be to a ducted system or through a wall mount or a ceiling cassette hydraulic system.
01:14:17:22 - 01:14:40:25
Voya Milasinovic: The Douglas I can add spark heating and spot cooling for the shoulder seasons, where it doesn't pay off for me to turn on my inflow radiant system in a, you know, ten inch, 14 inch concrete slab and heat up all of that concrete mass just for the temperature to change three hours later, and for me to need a little bit of cooling.
01:14:40:27 - 01:15:03:13
Voya Milasinovic: This simply gives me flexibility. The other thing that it does, it really gives me some more resiliency. Because this system is super, super efficient. It has the ability to turn down in a limit itself when it's operating on a battery backup or a generator backup, so that we are growing a lower amount of energy from our backup source.
01:15:03:16 - 01:15:33:03
Voya Milasinovic: We're maybe not providing the heating or cooling at exactly the comfort levels we want, but I can now extend the life of my storage system on my battery or the generator until power comes back up, or if it's overnight until sun comes out and I start to generate power for my PV array, it gives me the ability to add resiliency, backup, and comfort through efficiency without having to add to much cost on.
01:15:33:03 - 01:15:50:07
Voya Milasinovic: So all of this combined can essentially cost as much as just a standard, you know, in floor heating system with an added on secondary cooling system. But everything's being done through a single piece much more efficiently.
01:15:50:09 - 01:16:21:17
Voya Milasinovic: And I want to touch on water real quick since we're talking about water. Yesterday in our in-person training in Dallas, I invited the folks there to just kind of challenge themselves on the way we think and why we think. And I told a brief story. It was a story about a young girl and her mom that, you know, got together for Thanksgiving dinner, first Thanksgiving dinner in the daughter's house.
01:16:21:19 - 01:16:41:16
Voya Milasinovic: And mom was impressionistic. Oh, my God, you cut your you cut your him. You cut your ends of your him off, just like I do. Said. Yeah. Learned it for you. Why do you do that? She goes, I have no idea. I mean, I just learned it from my mom that that's the way we've always done it. Well, grandma's here.
01:16:41:17 - 01:16:59:09
Voya Milasinovic: Let's go ask. So they went and they asked grandma, and grandma's answer was, well, I have no idea why you all do it. The reason I did it is because my oven was small and I couldn't fit a whole hamman, so I had to cut the ends off in order to get the ham to actually fit in the pan that would fit in the oven.
01:16:59:11 - 01:17:32:16
Voya Milasinovic: So the point is, how often do we do things just simply because that's the way we've always done it. And my question to the folks yesterday, which I'll present to you as well, is why do we put our water heaters in a basement, attic or garage, typically at the point furthest away from where we actually need it? Typically master suite or primary suite is going to be located the furthest away from the garage or from that point in the attic that is usually above a garage.
01:17:32:18 - 01:18:02:03
Voya Milasinovic: And then we have to add recirculating pumps and all kinds of crazy things so we can deliver water to the faucet quickly. But yet we're putting the water heating devices far away from it, as we possibly can, in a space that is just out of the way. Right? It's out of sight, out of mind. Most manufacturers design their water heaters ugly because it's quick, it's cheap, it's easy, and everybody hides the water heaters.
01:18:02:05 - 01:18:31:07
Voya Milasinovic: What if we did? What if we made the water heater to look like what you see on your screen? What if it was made to actually go in the living space? And if it was made so that it only runs at 42dB, which is equivalent to your modern day refrigerator, what if it was made to actually add a little bit of cooling into your space and help remove some of that heat generated by the refrigerator?
01:18:31:07 - 01:19:03:17
Voya Milasinovic: If we simply redesign the layout of the home and how we think about it. One of the questions that was brought up and we discussed yesterday was, for example, a European style cold room. What if I turn if I make a bigger pantry, if I locate my water heater inside the pantry, if I now turn that pantry into a European style cold room that adds value to the home and for the right client is worth quite a few dollars.
01:19:03:19 - 01:19:26:09
Voya Milasinovic: But now I also think that heat away from the fridge and help the kitchen in those summer months maintain its temperature and stay a little cooler. Not necessarily an idea that works for every single, but something to think about because there are situations where this could work and it could be more profitable as us, for us, for us as builders.
01:19:26:09 - 01:19:50:29
Voya Milasinovic: But it could also be more energy efficient, more comfortable, and lower the energy usage or the bills for the consumer. So LG's water heater product I think is an amazing product. It's let's see, I think I have.
01:19:51:01 - 01:20:13:17
Voya Milasinovic: Nope, I don't do I have a slide. No, I don't have a slide that goes into the specifics, unfortunately, and I don't really know that I have the time to go in the specifics of it, but suffice to say, it's a little bit different than anything else on the market. So for anyone that is considering heat pump water, here's here are the key points that I would like you to think about.
01:20:13:19 - 01:20:48:14
Voya Milasinovic: Number one is with the heat pump water heaters that are on the market today, vast majority of them are limited to about 4000 BTU input from the heat pump itself. The moment we go a little bit outside of the design condition, these are no longer heat pump water heaters. They essentially turn into electric only water heaters. Reason for that is because a single speed heat pump, which is what 99% of heat pump water heaters in the market use cannot operate at the same time as the electric keystrokes.
01:20:48:14 - 01:21:14:02
Voya Milasinovic: So it's either or. LG's water heater is a little different. We actually operate the heat pump primarily in the heat strips, which there are two heat strips built into the water heater are only used as additive or emergency backup. So in other words, the only time you will run just the heat strip is if the heat pump in the water heater fails.
01:21:14:04 - 01:21:41:26
Voya Milasinovic: With the failure rate of these water heaters in Europe over the last 6 or 7 years, and then what we have here in the States in the less than half percent range, that's a pretty damn good record so far. The other part of it is that we can run in what we call turbo mode. So if we have a bunch of people over and we need a lot of water coming through, we can run the heat pump and the heat strips at the same time.
01:21:41:26 - 01:22:22:26
Voya Milasinovic: So we get a much, much quicker recovery rate. If you look on the screen, you can see that in heat pump mode, only the 58 gallon water heater gives you a 7676 gallon first hour pass through, and the 80 gallon gives you a 94 gallon first hour response rate, both of it at 3.9 to 3.93 UF. So an extremely efficient, extremely quiet water heater that I would just like to simply again say, challenge yourself to think a little bit outside the box.
01:22:22:29 - 01:22:48:26
Voya Milasinovic: How can you incorporate this into the living space, or at least in the condition space, rather than an attic or a garage or a basement? Unless, of course, you want to make that basement a focal point and you want to condition the basement perfectly okay. But when it looks like this. There's no need to hide it. And then on the water heating side from the air, the water heat pump, please shoot me.
01:22:48:26 - 01:23:13:24
Voya Milasinovic: Questions? Ask me anything. As far as that comes to mind. I'm actually about two weeks away from putting one of these air to water heat pumps with a hydronic air handler in my own home, predominantly because it gives me the ability to lower my fan speed in a hot, humid climate to super, super low while still maintaining a 41 degree coil.
01:23:13:28 - 01:23:37:21
Voya Milasinovic: I can get dehumidifier out of that system like no one's business, without having to worry about freezing my coil, without having to worry about all return, without having to worry about any of the 17,000 things that I have to worry about when I slow my air to air, keep them down to extremely low speeds. That thing has to protect itself.
01:23:37:24 - 01:24:04:15
Voya Milasinovic: So I can never really dial in the comfort the way I want to. And when I can do that with maybe a 10 to 15% premium over a standard air to air heat pump, I mean, I just basically added a ton more comfort, ton more efficiency is something that's going to future proof my home for the next 15 to 20 years easily for that 1,015% premium.
01:24:04:15 - 01:24:10:08
Voya Milasinovic: So any questions? More than happy to answer.
01:24:10:10 - 01:24:33:09
Mike Collignon: Thank you. I you know, I wanted to stick with this for just one second. You talked about, you know, hey you don't have to hide this thing. I was just curious sometimes. And you remember probably from energy code hearings and that you've got, you know, you had to have rooms, right? Okay. You got to have this mechanical room and it had to be ventilated and all that sort of thing.
01:24:33:12 - 01:24:40:25
Mike Collignon: How does that then work with this product here? What? Are there any of those kind of concerns or has that kind of been eliminated.
01:24:40:27 - 01:25:26:19
Voya Milasinovic: So no, those concerns are still always going to be there. But they are for the most part misunderstood. We recommend and ask for 700 cubic feet of space. If you are going to use this piece of equipment in an vented space that is not in any way or shape or form allowed to breathe, right? So if I have a completely closed room with a completely closed door, I need to have 700 cubic feet of space that is strictly so that this unit doesn't over cool that space so much that it starts to affect the efficiency and the performance of the equipment itself.
01:25:26:21 - 01:25:57:08
Voya Milasinovic: This is going to put off about 120 to 150 CFM, and let's call it about a 12 to maybe 18 degree delta between air incoming and air coming out of the the heat pump water here. So how do we overcome that. The unit takes Aaron on the top. As you can see here, all of our connections are on the side.
01:25:57:10 - 01:26:22:26
Voya Milasinovic: The only connection on the top is going to be power. And there's a what you can't see here. There's a washable filter right here on the very top there just slides out. That's where the incoming air is. It releases air on the back side. Very top here on the back side, we sell a kit that allows you to duct incoming air outgoing there or both.
01:26:22:29 - 01:26:42:20
Voya Milasinovic: It does take an eight inch dot if you choose to do so. So for example, when I said earlier, like a scenario of let's put a pantry next to the kitchen next to the fridge, right? Which is where pantries typically going to be. And let's put this unit kind of in the corner. Let's call it a, you know, back left corner of the pantry.
01:26:42:21 - 01:27:00:25
Voya Milasinovic: It's not going to take up a whole lot of space. We can still have shelves and things around it. We only need enough space to be able to access these side connections for our water coming in, water coming out in our drain. That's it. Our conversate, right? Those are the only things that we have to make connections for.
01:27:00:28 - 01:27:25:07
Voya Milasinovic: Let's say we come in and we simply take a duct and we duct the air from the kitchen, pick up there hot air off the fridge, and we duct it to come into this water heater and then let it blow freely into the pantry with just a simple pass through.
01:27:25:09 - 01:27:47:05
Voya Milasinovic: Just a passive pass through return on the lower side or the higher side of the pantry. Same wall as the kitchen, right? We're now still allowing that unit to breathe. We are creating a colder pantry than what you would normally have, so it's going to be colder, but it's not going to be so much colder than we have to worry about.
01:27:47:05 - 01:28:28:26
Voya Milasinovic: Condensate captures. Other part is, let's say you are building over a crawl space, over an encapsulated crawl space. You could use this unit to condition that encapsulated crawl space, right. So you conduct it both ways. So there's multiple ways that we can overcome that. One of the simplest and cheapest is going to be what Matt Reisinger is doing in his new home that he's currently not his new home, but a new home that he's currently constructed where they're using this product in a small type closet with a simple louvered door.
01:28:28:29 - 01:28:36:24
Voya Milasinovic: That's it. As long as we have a lower door, we have a path for that air to saturate and we're good.
01:28:36:26 - 01:28:53:03
Mike Collignon: Gotcha. Okay, I do want to get to another question, though. Our friend Zoran, who lives up in Canada, he's asking about cold climates and he wanted to know can humidifier the air enough in winter.
01:28:53:05 - 01:28:57:10
Voya Milasinovic: Okay, so ERP.
01:28:57:12 - 01:29:20:08
Voya Milasinovic: I'm going to I'm going to take a little bit of a tangent on that to say that. Yes, thank you. And I'm glad you're asking about it in winter because I am not a fan of HR in any climate. Main difference between an ERP and an HR is whether or not they allow moisture to pass through the core.
01:29:20:10 - 01:29:45:23
Voya Milasinovic: Even in cooling predominant climates. I don't like Harvey simply because I want to keep my humidity inside the space. And with an hrvoje, all I'm doing is I'm just dumping it out. I'm not allowing any of that moisture to come back into the incoming industry, whereas an HR can. HR. I'm sorry, ERP can is not going to humidifier.
01:29:45:25 - 01:30:10:02
Voya Milasinovic: All it is going to do is allow you to retain a small portion of the humidity that is already inside your space. So if you are maintaining a 50% humidity inside your living space and you're using an ERP and let's say the outdoor humidity is at 25%, really?
01:30:10:04 - 01:30:28:21
Voya Milasinovic: The best you're going to be able to do is maybe recover with a good ERV, 50% of that humidity that's that would have been expelled. You're going to be able to recover it. So you will still drop your humidity levels inside your space, but not as quickly as you would with an HR.
01:30:28:24 - 01:31:10:19
Voya Milasinovic: I hope that answers the question when it comes to maintaining or keeping humidity up in a cooling or sort of heating predominant dry climate, you will have to have some sort of supplemental humidification, just like for me in Texas, where I want to keep humidity out of my space, I have to have the humidity supplemental. Because while an ERP will help remove a lot of the moisture out of that incoming airstream, it's still not going to remove enough for me to maintain space conditions.
01:31:10:19 - 01:31:37:03
Voya Milasinovic: So the best that I can say is think of an ERP as a ventilation device. Simply a managed ventilation device, just like a nose is for me, for my face. I don't want to breathe through my ears, so that's really all it does. HVAC removes humidity when it runs. Do I want to to count on it as a dehumidifier?
01:31:37:04 - 01:32:11:16
Voya Milasinovic: No, absolutely not, because it only removes humidity. Incidentally, it's not meant to do those things. So the best that we can do for comfort of ourselves, our homeowners, folks that we build these homes for is understand that they care about health, they care about their comfort. And as long as we educate them that each piece of equipment is designed to do exactly one job AC, the condition heater, the heat ERP to ventilate dehumidifier, the dehumidifier humidifier to humanity.
01:32:11:18 - 01:32:28:02
Voya Milasinovic: As long as they understand that folks are willing to install just about anything we recommend, they're willing to pay the money as long as we can explain to them why we are doing what we're doing, and we better have a good why.
01:32:28:05 - 01:32:42:29
Mike Collignon: Right, right. Yep. Sam talks about that a lot. If anybody has any questions for Sam or Voya, please go ahead and send those in. This is kind of the final call for questions. Sam, did you have anything for you at all?
01:32:43:02 - 01:33:14:16
Sam Rashkin: Well, I just wanted to just correct that your views don't deem it at all. All they do is reduce the moisture, come into the house so they reduce the demarcation load. They don't do it. So normally if you ventilate, you're bringing in Royster. What a does is it kind of collects in the moisture that would come in, let's say in a hot summer day and transfers, transfers that to the airflow going out, being exhausted.
01:33:14:16 - 01:33:36:22
Sam Rashkin: So you have less humidity coming in than you would without it. V so zero from a V, but you do reduce some more load on the house so that the is is not as as much. That's all I want to add. But otherwise we're good.
01:33:36:24 - 01:33:41:20
Voya Milasinovic: Now Sam, just just for our conversation.
01:33:41:23 - 01:34:05:03
Voya Milasinovic: What are your thoughts on my my feelings and my comments on HGVs in a cold, dry climate where we need to humidifier versus an ERP? I mean, I'd love to hear your perspective on it, just because I'm a firm believer in what an Hrvoje is and what an ERP is, does it mean that you have not experienced something different?
01:34:05:07 - 01:34:12:05
Voya Milasinovic: So what's your thoughts on that as it comes to retaining the moisture in a home when you actually want to?
01:34:12:08 - 01:34:48:06
Sam Rashkin: Yeah, I'm an absolute lockstep with you. I just hope that I think I'm sensing that there's almost a complete transition from HGVs being used to. I know that there's an extra cost to cause more expensive, but there are too many benefits. With climate change, even the northern regions of the country are getting worse. Summer conditions you benefit from the IRB at that time of year and and winter.
01:34:48:06 - 01:35:08:08
Sam Rashkin: You just don't want to get the house that dry. It's just it's you want to, as you say, trap all the moisture you have. So it creates healthier living conditions, less, less floor shrinking. So you have cracks and hardwood floors. So I'm in lockstep with you.
01:35:10:09 - 01:35:31:09
Mike Collignon: Well I don't see any other questions. So I'm going to go ahead and wrap this up for now. We are halfway through this series. But that also means we've got half of it still to go. So our next seminar is going to take place next Thursday, October 31st at 12 p.m. Eastern time. We're going to be talking about the future, and we won't even need a Delorean to do so.
01:35:31:12 - 01:35:48:05
Mike Collignon: Thank you so much for attending today. And thank you to Schneider Electric, Genco Solar, Panasonic Healthy Indoor Living Solutions, and LG VAC and Air Conditioning Technologies for their generous sponsorships. Until we meet again. Stay safe, stay healthy and take care everyone. So long.
01:35:48:07 - 01:35:49:09
Voya Milasinovic: Thank you.
01:35:49:12 - 01:35:50:01
Sam Rashkin: Goodbye.